Congestion Charge

[Noodle-Pulp]

Tuesday this week I had to drive into the Congestion Charging zone in London, and I vowed to myself that I'd sort it out and pay when I got home..
As it was, I had a terrible day and was stuck in traffic on the A2 around New Cross on the way home which took well over 2 hours to get through.. I had stuff that was more uppermost in my mind when I got home and promptly forgot to pay it (it would have been £8).

2 days later I suddenly remembered while with a friend in Yorkshire and went online to make a late payment.. horrified that I could only pay up until Wednesday, I then phoned them to pay over the phone..(if you pay next day it's £10).

Lo and behold after 24 hours after you've driven in the CC Zone you cannot pay you have to wait until the penalty notice comes through, I was told if I paid promptly it would be £60 otherwise it's £120..

I'm actually on holiday in Yorkshire for a while, chances are I won't be able to pay "promptly".. this whole situation is not good.

So because of my own forgetfulness and even though I'm willing and able to pay the daily charge of £8, it looks increasingly like this will be at least £60 but could be as much as £120, unless anyone has any bright ideas that could help me in this predicament?

Any advice would be well received.

 

[st13phil]

TfL are very nasty with the C-Charge. They will do everything they can to maximise their revenue up to and including using the courts. A neighbour of mine ended up paying more than £300 as a result of lapse of memory.

Personally, I'd do the following:

1) Phone them again asking to pay the charge there and then. Record the call and/or take notes including the name of the person you speak with. Ask for a reference number for the call if they refuse to let you pay.

2) As long as you're not away for more than couple of weeks then I'd send them the £60 with a covering letter stating that you were unable to pay sooner as you were away from your home address, and refer to the phone call made in step (1). If they subsequently choose to take action against you you can use your records to evidence that you have made every effort to pay quickly but that their administration systems thwarted you.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Jon.
__________________________________________________ __________
We should think about harvesting stupidity as a resource, we seem to have an endless supply on this planet.

 

[Chrishazle]

The only time I've had to go into the CC zone I knew in advance so paid online beforehand - cursing our visitors overnighting and choosing a hotel 1/4 mile inside the zone!

 

[stumpy1]

I think you get a couple of weeks to pay the lower fine iirc.

 

[Palfrem]

Just browsing my local paper and there's a guy fined £120 for having no insurance.
Forgetting to pay CC on time does not justify the same penalty

Is this your first offence on CC?

 

[christopherwk]

It's too late now (I think) to pay the £8/£10 . Just wait until the penalty charge notice comes through and pay the £60 within two weeks. If you pay up, no further action will be taken and that will be the end of the matter.

On a similar topic, Boris said from next year, he'll introduce an account system, whereby payment will be made automatically from a registered credit card, each time you enter the zone.

Interesting, how they couldn't find the technology to introduce this when the congestion charge was first introduced (don't they have something similar at Dartford and Severn Bridge where they take payment automatically if you have a reader on the windscreen), but the technology used to capture your number plate on ANPR, match that number plate against existing ones which has already paid, getting your details from the DVLA, and sending the fine through the post is already there.

 

[MrT]

Tuesday this week I had to drive into the Congestion Charging zone in London, and I vowed to myself that I'd sort it out and pay when I got home..
As it was, I had a terrible day and was stuck in traffic on the A2 around New Cross on the way home which took well over 2 hours to get through.. I had stuff that was more uppermost in my mind when I got home and promptly forgot to pay it (it would have been £8).

I did this many years ago when it was still £5/day and there was no facility to pay up the next day. I suddenly remembered and rang TfL, but like you, they said there was no way around it and that I would just have to pay the £60 fine when it arrived.

I got a nice photo of my car in the post, but not £60 nice.

 

[Charles Morgan]

I was fined the second time I entered the original charging zone, and it is obvious from the revenue breakdown that fining people was far more profitable than administering the charge at a fiver. To his credit Boris has made things better, but it was designed as a shakedown racket from the beginning, and I long for the western extension to be removed as it costs me £210 a year for the discounted charge, plus an annual admin fee of about a tenner to register.

I think St13phil's advice is sound.

 

[markjay]

Things were much worst in the beginning, as you had to pay same-day - the option to pay the day after has only been introduced recently. And Boris did well to block Ken's planned increase from £8 to £25.

The official reason for NOT having an accounting system, was to put to rest the massive objection due to privacy infringement. The whole CC scheme seems like a big brother operation. Ken got it through by promising that the system will NOT record details of journeys of drivers who paid - so the details and images of all those who paid are supposedly being deleted every night, while only the details of those who did not pay remain on file.

As said the CC would not have passed if it had an accounting system at the time of inception, but now it could be sneaked-in through the rear door....

 

[Pappilo]

I hate the congestion charge and I must have gone through the zone and had to pay maybe once or twice. I think it is an illegal tax but that said where do you want TfL to draw the line? Should it be as in your case two days after or next man's case which is 3 days after the stipulated time?

There are signs up about every mile or so reminding you that you are about to enter or are in the congestion charging zone. If you take it seriously and know the consequences, why dont you pull into a petrol station and make the payment at the counter or on your mobile phone? Better yet set a reminder on your phone to alert you when you get home. We all have to take responsibilities for our actions or inactions.

I once had a woman who had just giving birth call me from her hospital bed just before midnight to be put through to the congestion charging line to pay the charge as she couldnt reach an 0845 number from her mobile; Her husband was doing all the running about and had not had the chance to pay the charge. Although it wasnt something I was obliged to do, I put her through anyway.

If a woman who had just gone through one of the most painful natural events a human being can ever experience remembers to pay the C charge, I see no reason why others shouldnt.

 

[markjay]

An interesting point is that most embassies in London, most notably the US embassy, racked up thousands of Pounds in fines because they refuse to pay the Congestion Charge... they claim that it is a 'tax', and as diplomats they are exempt for paying taxes under international treaties. TfL refuse to accept that the Congestion Charge is a tax, but they can not take any legal action against the embassies or the diplomats due to diplomatic immunity, so the dispute goes on...

 

[Sorry Pete]

plus an annual admin fee of about a tenner to register.

I think St13phil's advice is sound.

That £10 'admin' charge is a real kick in the teeth.

 

[MOCAŠ]

In 2004/05, 38% of the total scheme revenue came from PCNs and subsequent enforcement. In the following two fiscal years, while overall revenue increased, this percentage dropped to 31% and 26% respectively, presumably due to increased awareness of the consequences of not paying, and the introduction of the 'pay next day' option.

For those not entitled to the resident's discount or other concessions, the one-off payment terms are as follows:

- On or before the day you enter the zone: £8
- Up to midnight the day after: £10

After that, there is no further option to pay the charge, and a PCN will be issued instead:

- If paid within 14 days of its being issued: £60
- If paid within 28 days: £120
- After 28 days, it increases to £180

If you then still fail to pay, the debt is registered with the County Court, with the £5 fee being added to the total. After that the matter is passed to debt recovery agencies, which can see costs soar with various fees added to the total. If bailiffs get involved, they have the power to seize goods to the value of the overall debt. The sting here is that those goods are usually auctioned off for a pittance, which not only fails to clear the original debt, but often sees it increased once further fees from the bailiffs and the auction house are added.

If you accrue three or more unpaid PCNs, your car can be clamped and/or seized. Not surprisingly, you then need to pay all outstanding costs, including the cost of transporting and 'storing' the vehicle, in order get it back.

Also, the resident's discount scheme is flawed. While promoted as offering a 90% discount, it can only be used if paying for at least 5 consecutive days, so if you just need to use your car for one day a week you're only really getting a 50% discount; and the discount doesn't apply if you pay next day. Oh, and only one car per resident can be registered under the scheme (there are special arrangeements for hire cars/courtesy cars/etc), which seems designed more to discourage car ownership rather than car use.

 

[iscaboy]

This raises some interesting questions.

I'm neither young nor stupid nor insular, and as you can see from the left I live in Devon, e.g. outside London.

I have been , on and off, driving to, or through, London for 30+ years now, I still don't "know" it, being limited to the places I've been to.

So, let's say I go to London next week, and enter the CC zone.

I know I've entered it because there are signs up and some marking on the road, that I may or may not be able to see and read, could be an arctic in front of me.

I'm still in my car, which is legal, taxed, insured, MOT, driving licence, and I'm following the highway code, nothing a squad or traffic plod could find fault with.

It's not like parking, where I can stand and read a sign, and go to a meter and buy a ticket, I'm in moving traffic.

I have no method of finding more info, or paying anything, and I end up at my destination (last time it was a Premier Inn***) and park, legally, in their car park. The staff are east european, and can barely speak english, much less cockney translation (Smiley Culture, for those old enough and into that stuff)

The next day I complete my business, return to the hotel, and drive home, again, 100% road legal.

You see where I'm going here...

Apparently, from what I'm reading here, I don't get sent an invoice for £8 in the post, address generated from the registration plate, apparently, I am supposed to comply with some regulation, and comply with the letter of it, and comply within 24 hours, for an activity that is quite legal throughout the rest of the country.

It would have been easy enough to make entry into the congestion zone limited to certain roads (all others being no entry and leading out only) and stick toll booths on them, same as crossing the Tamar bridge back from Cornwall, or crossing the M4 into welsh wales.

But no.

And further to this, this £8 charge transmogrifies into £60 or £120 or £200, depending on other vagaries, not limited to me collecting and reading the post at the registered keepers address of my vehicle not less than once every 24 hours, so I'm not even allowed to work away during the week or go on holiday, or even suffer a local posties strike, without it somehow being legally and financially my fault.

I can't find any law that says that the registered keeper of a UK vehicle has to live in the UK and has to check their post every 24 hours, and yet I will be punished if I do not comply with this unwritten law?

Especially given that the DVLA have a mechanism in place where they will send a tax disk to a foreign address...

I and my vehicle are two separate entities, and yet we are going to be punished for being two separate entities. AFAIK there is no law that says a 100% legal UK registered vehicle can only be owned by or registered to a UK resident... this would surely breach the EU CHR.

yes I know (now, having googled this subject) that there is a website Congestion Charging | Transport for London
but since when werean internet connection and mastercard a legal requirement to drive a vehicle in either the UK or EU? for without both the above website is useless.

I'm left with the distinct impression that the easiest thing for me to do is simply refuse to take my own vehicle anywhere near London... and on those very rare occasions when I have no choice whatsoever, if it is for a client I just added £100 per congestion charge to your bill for the hassle, and if it is for me it is simply easier to "avoid" the system grabbing my information.

I'm also left with the impression that the whole congestion charge thing, as implemented, is strictly speaking, not legal, and that only public apathy, ignorance of the law, and fear of having your car crushed, causes what compliance there is.

*** I decided to get a taxi into the City the next day, there was a small "under the arches" taxi firm just around the corner, hilariously, there were three black 406's parked outside with what turned out to be identical magnetic registration plates...

 

[clk208]

Completely agree - highway robbery!

Authorities find it so much easier and more profitable to target the law abiding majority while the people who don't bother to opt in to the system at all and avoid insurance, road tax, drive on dodgy plates and probably avoid income tax as well get away with it completely or worse case get a fine which is a fraction of the cost of complying with everything in the first place!

 

[MOCAŠ]

So, let's say I go to London next week, and enter the CC zone. I know I've entered it because there are signs up and some marking on the road, that I may or may not be able to see and read, could be an arctic in front of me.

As with all road signs, not being able to see them due to some sort of obstruction doesn't really get you off the hook. Imagine if you were caught driving the wrong way down a one-way street because you didn't see the no entry sign? I guess you'd take it on the chin. At least with the C-Charge you get a warning ahead of entering the zone, as well as at the point of entry.

I'm still in my car, which is legal, taxed, insured, MOT, driving licence, and I'm following the highway code... The next day I complete my business, return to the hotel, and drive home, again, 100% road legal.

The Highway Code covers compliance with congestion charging signs, and refers you to the relevant legislation for further information. The provisions for congestion charging and penalties in London are covered by the Greater London Authority Act 1999, Transport Act 2000 and the Traffic Management Act 2004. Now, clearly road users are not expected to have read the Acts that govern their road use, but this is what you'd be up against if you were to challenge the legitimacy of the charging regime.

Apparently, from what I'm reading here, I don't get sent an invoice for £8 in the post, address generated from the registration plate, apparently, I am supposed to comply with some regulation, and comply with the letter of it, and comply within 24 hours, for an activity that is quite legal throughout the rest of the country.

Essentially, yes, although you can pay the standard £8 charge in advance as a well as on the day. But the fact of the matter is that under the provisions of the aforementioned Act, Greater London is on a different legal footing to the rest of the country when it comes to traffic enforcement.

It would have been easy enough to make entry into the congestion zone limited to certain roads (all others being no entry and leading out only) and stick toll booths on them, same as crossing the Tamar bridge back from Cornwall, or crossing the M4 into welsh wales.

This is an absolute no-no. For a start, there is simply not the room on London's roads to accommodate sufficient toll booths for the volume of traffic, and in any case they would be completely counterproductive in tackling congestion. The there's cost and disruption of installation and maintenance to consider. Furthermore, making all but a few key roads one-way would cause gridlock, and flies in the face of current moves to eradicate one-way systems in London.

There are a few things I believe they should do to make things fairer, though. For instance, it ought to be possible to check online or by phone whether you need to pay the charge for a given day; I've paid it on several occasions when I was planning to use the car but then didn't, or when I wasn't sure whether I'd entered the zone within the operational hours. Also, the account-based system mentioned by another member is long overdue, as this could allow you to settle at the end of each month based on actual usage, but then they'd lose the revenue from PCNs and people who (like me) sometimes pay the charge unnecessarily just to be on the safe side.

And further to this, this £8 charge transmogrifies into £60 or £120 or £200, depending on other vagaries, not limited to me collecting and reading the post at the registered keepers address of my vehicle not less than once every 24 hours, so I'm not even allowed to work away during the week or go on holiday, or even suffer a local posties strike, without it somehow being legally and financially my fault.

I can't find any law that says that the registered keeper of a UK vehicle has to live in the UK and has to check their post every 24 hours, and yet I will be punished if I do not comply with this unwritten law?

Especially given that the DVLA have a mechanism in place where they will send a tax disk to a foreign address...

Well, I guess the salient point here is that the vagaries of the postal system only become an issue if you don't pay the charge in the first place, but you'd face the same issues if they were to send you that £8 invoice prior to the PCN taking effect.

For a car to be registered with the DVLA, the registered keeper has to provide a UK address and is responsible for the day-to-day running of the car, even if they don't drive it themselves. This is also important for things like recall notices and other notifications relating to driving offences. The facility to have a tax disc sent overseas is specifically for cases where the car itself will be outside of the UK when the tax disc expires, otherwise the driver would be committing an offence if he drove the the car on his return to the UK.

AFAIK there is no law that says a 100% legal UK registered vehicle can only be owned by or registered to a UK resident... this would surely breach the EU CHR.

That's essentially what being "UK registered" means. You can bring a car in from within the EU and use it for up to 6 months within any 12-month period, but beyond that you have to register it to a UK address.

I'm left with the distinct impression that the easiest thing for me to do is simply refuse to take my own vehicle anywhere near London...

That's a fair point, and it has to be said that one of the main aims of the scheme was to discourage people from driving into/within central (and for the time being, west) London unnecessarily.

I decided to get a taxi into the City the next day, there was a small "under the arches" taxi firm just around the corner, hilariously, there were three black 406's parked outside with what turned out to be identical magnetic registration plates...

Hmm, as TfL also control the licensing of mini-cabs in London, I'm sure they'd be very interested to know about this.

 

[Duncan Beaumont]

Yep, that's the way it is.

Pay by cash
Pay online

You just have to pay it. The signs are pretty big and are at various points before you go into the zone.

 

[Noodle-Pulp]

Jon.
__________________________________________________ __________
We should think about harvesting stupidity as a resource, we seem to have an endless supply on this planet.

Stupidity is not the same as forgetfulness, try asking all those people with Alzheimer's, thanks for the thought though.

________________________________________

Well I'll wait for the demand to turn up, thanks for all of your input guys, just wondering though if I was an overseas national driving my own car in and was of NFA - how would that turn out?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Stupidity is not the same as forgetfulness, try asking all those people with Alzheimer's, thanks for the thought though.

________________________________________

Well I'll wait for the demand to turn up, thanks for all of your input guys, just wondering though if I was an overseas national driving my own car in and was of NFA - how would that turn out?

Just a joke, no offence intended.