Diesels

[SL300-24]

You haven't had injector seal failure then - yet .

To be fair Derek I think that you had a bad experience with the W203 but to compare it with your 190E is not really a fair comparison. The 203 is a much more complex car and whereas you generally work on your older cars the newer car went to a specialist so obviously the cost was higher.

I have both petrol and diesel cars. My current S211 E320CDI Sport I have had for 4 and a half years and I had a saloon previously. My missus uses the 211 every day for short trips and drives very sedately. It has no DPF but when I get in it I always move it along..... quite often in lower gears to give it a good blow out. I have never had a car with a DPF so can't comment on that.
In the time that I have owned it I have replaced one glow plug and glow plug relay. It is a fun car to drive for a big barge too.

My 500SL is nice in different ways. Lovely V8 rumble looks great and is a lovely classic drive. My point is that both petrol and diesel are good in different ways and you can enjoy both.
If I am popping to the shops I generally use my 190E my wife always uses the 211.
I wonder how many of the diesel knockers have actually lived with one for any time before posting up some of the adverse comments.
So in my opinion a diesel without a DPF can be used for short trips but I would advise a good blast every couple of weeks to keep everything as clean as possible and you should have relatively trouble free motoring with the right car of course.
What do I prefer neither/both I suppose.......

 

[ianrandom]

Short trips are very bad for cars, petrol and diesel. And bad for people too, unless they are disabled of course or in other need.

I remember a Vauxhall owners manual a few years ago (petrol 1.4,awful car) saying if you drove it for journeys of less than 8 miles, more than 3 times per week, you should change the oil 4 times more frequently - or expect a quarter of the usual engine life span.

The particulate filter is another issue, cars now have additives that are added automatically to try and help keep that filter clean on short journeys but there's no avoiding that you are going to have problems if you use the vehicle like that.

Could always walk..?

 

[Smatt]

My MB manual says that cars with DPFs used for short trips need to be taken on a 20min country road or M-way trip every 500kms....
-I presume they researched this?

My dilemma is with the distance.
For long trips diesel fine
For short diesel not really recommended
But more difficult to say if medium trips ok with diesel or not eg 8-15miles. I guess I will find out!

 

[grahamcarvlin]

My question is what is classed as short journeys ?
I got my C220 CDI lat year when commuting 30 mike each way to work and back. Mostly dual carriageway
I have recently changed jobs and now travel 16 miles each way to work and back but through traffic.
Should I be concerned ??

 

[st13phil]

My question is what is classed as short journeys ?

This isn't a direct answer, but may shed some light on the question.

My commute to work is 23 miles, mostly on fast A- and B-roads. Diesel engines tend to take longer to warm up than petrol (size for size) due to their higher thermal efficiency, but I haven't had a diesel car in the last 14 years that didn't reach normal running temperature on the gauge within the first 3 - 4 miles of the journey.

My E63, in addition to the water temperature gauge, has an engine oil temperature gauge. For the oil temperature, 80°C is defined as the low end of the normal operating temperature range. What has been instructive is that just like all the other cars I had over the last 14 years, on my daily commute the E63's water temperature is up to 90°C+ within the first 3 - 4 miles, yet the engine oil temperature doesn't hit 80°C until between 9 and 10 miles and about 17 minutes into the journey.

So bearing in mind that the oil getting up to temperature is more critical than the water, anything less than 10 - 12 miles in my E63 should be considered a short journey.

 

[219]

Black Death yes .. Easy fix

I'd have to say that you were lucky if you caught it before damage from escaping gases under high compression put paid to the injectors : when I bought my car all appeared ok , but within a few weeks no 5 injector started 'chuffing' ; on taking the car for diagnosis , no's 3&4 were also leaking - the bill for this was close to a grand . A few months later no 2 went as well . At that point I asked about doing no 1 as well but Stef at Merparts reckoned I was as well leaving it as it might run for a good while , so far that has proved right as I must have put a further 20,000 miles on the car since .

There have been numerous other issues with that car which has put me off having such a new vehicle again as it is not as DIY friendly as the older cars .

 

[219]

To be fair Derek I think that you had a bad experience with the W203 but to compare it with your 190E is not really a fair comparison. The 203 is a much more complex car and whereas you generally work on your older cars the newer car went to a specialist so obviously the cost was higher.

I have both petrol and diesel cars. My current S211 E320CDI Sport I have had for 4 and a half years and I had a saloon previously. My missus uses the 211 every day for short trips and drives very sedately. It has no DPF but when I get in it I always move it along..... quite often in lower gears to give it a good blow out. I have never had a car with a DPF so can't comment on that.
In the time that I have owned it I have replaced one glow plug and glow plug relay. It is a fun car to drive for a big barge too.

My 500SL is nice in different ways. Lovely V8 rumble looks great and is a lovely classic drive. My point is that both petrol and diesel are good in different ways and you can enjoy both.
If I am popping to the shops I generally use my 190E my wife always uses the 211.
I wonder how many of the diesel knockers have actually lived with one for any time before posting up some of the adverse comments.
So in my opinion a diesel without a DPF can be used for short trips but I would advise a good blast every couple of weeks to keep everything as clean as possible and you should have relatively trouble free motoring with the right car of course.
What do I prefer neither/both I suppose.......

Well , yes it is more complex , and therefore not as DIY-able , hence it went into the garage .

I have in the past put my older cars into specialists for jobs I didn't fancy doing or didn't have the tools or knowledge to do myself : the last example being when I put the 500 in for an ABS fault - it turned out to be failing wiring to both front wheel sensors , but even with labour costs I'd rather do that than diagnose by throwing expensive parts at it .

With the 203 , I did think of changing the injectors myself - until I researched it and read how easy it is to penetrate the water jacket , effectively writing off the cylinder head , if you are too aggressive cleaning and cutting the seat . Even Stef had difficulty with one of them and had to use some special compound M-B make for this purpose ( sealing worn seats ) , but my line of thinking was if I knackered the head I would have no comeback , but if a garage did it .....

Then there is the little matter that the new injectors need coded to the ECU , fine if you have your own STAR machine , otherwise ...

The labour wasn't actually that bad for that job , most of the cost was for the injectors ( genuine M-B ones ) at , from memory , around £300 each .

The thing that has put me off the 203 , and anything else similarly new , is that it just doesn't seem as robust as the earlier cars , and things that ought to be simple or would be inexpensive on the older cars aren't on the newer ones - think locks , keys , ball joints for starters ( I've had all go on this car ) .

 

[E270 Owner]

when I bought my car all appeared ok , but within a few weeks no 5 injector started 'chuffing' ; on taking the car for diagnosis , no's 3&4 were also leaking - the bill for this was close to a grand . A few months later no 2 went as well . At that point I asked about doing no 1 as well but Stef at Merparts reckoned I was as well leaving it as it might run for a good while , so far that has proved right as I must have put a further 20,000 miles on the car since .

Hmm if this is correct that's poor repair work, bad advice and too expensive.

I would have pulled the car from there and got the job done elsewhere, its not rocket science doing injectors on these engines even when covered in Black Death gunge.

All the injectors should have had the seals replaced as well as re-greased and new bolts fitted.

 

[219]

This is an Indy I have used a number of times , and come to trust implicitly .

To be fair , I did ask them to keep costs down . I had just bought the car in late November , then bought five new tyres , and a full size spare wheel , before going through the expense of Christmas & New Year - so when this happened early January funds were quite depleted and I asked them to fix it properly but not to run up unnecessary expense - which I feel they did .

When the subsequent injector went , a few months later , I asked about doing the last one , and was told there were two trains of thought , but went with the advice 'if it ain't broke , don't fix it , as Stef had flagged up other faults that I sorted by myself ( worn ball joint , rusty brake pipes , leaking pipes to fuel cooler , worn drive belt . Had there not been other things that needed doing , I might have got him to do the preventative job .

 

[meeeb]

My MB manual says that cars with DPFs used for short trips need to be taken on a 20min country road or M-way trip every 500kms....

My question is what is classed as short journeys ?

"Therefore, if you frequently drive short distances, you should take a 20 minute trip on a motorway or rural road at least every 500 km"

It seems reasonable to assume that anything less than "20 minutes on a motorway or country road" is a short trip: at least that is my criterion.

I believe that the principal requirement is to travel the 20 minutes without stopping - e.g. for traffic, roundabouts, junctions, traffic lights etc., hence the motorway/country road stipulation.

I've followed this advice for almost six years and never had a DPF issue.

 

[E270 Owner]

This is an Indy I have used a number of times , and come to trust implicitly .

To be fair , I did ask them to keep costs down . I had just bought the car in late November , then bought five new tyres , and a full size spare wheel , before going through the expense of Christmas & New Year - so when this happened early January funds were quite depleted and I asked them to fix it properly but not to run up unnecessary expense - which I feel they did .

When the subsequent injector went , a few months later , I asked about doing the last one , and was told there were two trains of thought , but went with the advice 'if it ain't broke , don't fix it , as Stef had flagged up other faults that I sorted by myself ( worn ball joint , rusty brake pipes , leaking pipes to fuel cooler , worn drive belt . Had there not been other things that needed doing , I might have got him to do the preventative job .

So long as your happy that's all that matters

 

[Benzowner]

Fuel comparison figures as in my MB owners manual

B200 petrol Urban 9.3-9.6l/100km, Extra Urban 6.0-6.3l/100km O/A 7.2-7.5l/100km

B180 diesel Urban 7.2-7.6l/100km, Extra Urban 4.6-4.7l/100km O/A 5.6-5.8l/100km

B200 Diesel Same as B180 diesel surprisingly

So according to MB diesels are 25% ish more economical than equivalent petrol engines

As regards the DPF, diesels should be driven hard anyway, ask white van man, drive it like it's stolen and you have no problem with DPF even on short journeys.

 

[geraldrobins]

I'm not criticising anyone for their choice, and I definitely don't presume other peoples experiences match mine. All I can do is relay my experience of diesel vs petrol, and in my experience running costs no longer play a part.
However, I do believe that many have forgotten just how refined a nice 6 cylinder petrol engine is. You get used to a diesel after a few weeks, and it is not till you get back in a Merc or BMW 6cyl that you realise how big a gap their still is.

I don't get why someone else's view would upset you anyway?
We all make the decision we make, and had our reasons for doing so.


And I was sort of agreeing with most, saying that I had also bought diesel because I too am caught in the UKs mentality of 'it has to be diesel'.
And I was trying to explain, which is what the thread was about, that "No, diesels are not a good idea for short journeys." by giving my examples over the last 9 years and 250,000 miles.

Peoples views do not upset me. But I dont like to be considered deluded over my choice or caught up in a 'UK mentality' over my considered choices. I drive a diesel and have done for several years as has my wife. as for our next cars, petrol will be a consideration.

 

[Dieselman]

All I know is that my diesel car is much more economical than my petrol car but it also only has 45bhp and sounds like a bucket of nails.

I always thought those Volvo D5 generated more power than that. Live and learn...

 

[Sp!ke]

The D5 belongs to swmbo and she has a 2 mile commute...luckily it is pre DPF.

When I take it for a spin it smokes like a trooper on hard acceleration until I clear its throat.

 

[gIzzE]

Peoples views do not upset me. But I dont like to be considered deluded over my choice or caught up in a 'UK mentality' over my considered choices.

If you felt I was aiming that at you I wasn't, but then if you thought that maybe there is some truth in it?

Of course you are caught up in some bizarre UK mentality, as am I.

I drive a diesel and have done for several years as has my wife. as for our next cars, petrol will be a consideration.

This was sort of my point, it seems that we all went over to diesel a few years ago when they were getting twice the MPG of the equivalent petrol, and diesel was the sensible choice, you could put £30 a week in instead of £55.
But now the difference is more like £60 instead of £65 for many, yet it is still the car we look at first when choosing our next vehicle.
I know full well I won't save anything with a diesel, and I know full well I will prefer everything a petrol has to offer, yet still I panic and buy the diesel because.........because......I'm not even too sure why, because I feel I should.



My old man has a 2010 ML350cdi, and he is getting 25.6mpg from that. When he was having a service and some work done he was lent an ML500.
He loved the car, he adored it in fact, the sound, the power, the refinement, everything about it. He was also gobsmacked that over the two days he had it the OBC was showing 23.4mpg.
I suggested that he swapped his 350cdi for one, but he said that seeing 26mpg on his was bad enough, seeing 23mpg was just too low. He understood that in money terms it was costing nothing more, but he said he just couldn't live with that figure in front of him all the time.
He knew who was being a ****, but that was the way he felt.
There seems to be a mental block buying petrol by many of us, it is all very strange.

 

[Sp!ke]

I think your figures are not representative of most diesel cars.

A modern 2 Litre family sized diesel with close on 200bhp and bags of torque will likely return 50mpg with ease and as much as 60mpg on a run.

What equivalant petrol engined car is there with similar real world mpg?

In my experience I would need to go down to a horrible little 1.2L petrol hatchback with no torque to even hope to achieve the same mpg and even then, it would be a struggle.

 

[gIzzE]

I think your figures are not representative of most diesel cars.

A modern 2 Litre family sized diesel with close on 200bhp and bags of torque will likely return 50mpg with ease and as much as 60mpg on a run.

What equivalant petrol engined car is there with similar real world mpg?

In my experience I would need to go down to a horrible little 1.2L petrol hatchback with no torque to even hope to achieve the same mpg and even then, it would be a struggle.

All I ever read on this forum is from owners of the C220cdi and E220cdi starting threads along the lines of 'What MPG do you get? I think I have a problem."
Then they go on and say that, I am averaging just over 40mpg and on a run I can get over 50mph if I feather it. Should they take it to Mercedes to have it looked at? etc. etc.

Even the guys with the 2.1 Hybrid are averaging in the 40s.

I have just been to the coast and back tonight to get something and took the Z3, that is a 2.8i straight six, and it was showing 42.1mpg when I pulled in, that was after 94 miles. My old 320d Efficient dynamics would have got just over 50mpg doing that trip.

I agree that for someone sitting on the motorway doing loads of miles will see a benefit from a small 4 cyl diesel, that is the one area where they start to get really good mpg.
But that is back to what I was saying about comparing apples with apples, too many people compare a six cylinder petrol with a new modern 4 cyl stop/start diesel.

Then you have the new 4 cyl stop/start petrols, and you have things like cylinder on demand petrols.
I have not tried the new 1.4tfsi cylinder on demand, but my mate at Audi who lent me the 2.0tdi and the 1.4tfsi A3 a while back, said they are amazing mpg wise. He said that on his 10 mile commute it is beating the 2.0tdi for mpg and that they are starting to sell a lot of them.
They are £2000 cheaper new than the 2.0tdi and the residual is the same after 3 years and 12k miles, so it works out around £55-60 a month cheaper than the diesel on the monthlies too.
He said both do about 48 average. Now for someone doing 10k miles a year that is £102 a month for the petrol and £110 a month for the diesel.
Take off the £55 a month you save buying the petrol and suddenly the petrol starts to make more sense, from a money perspective.


Petrols are advancing as quick, if not quicker, than diesels technology wise.
I think it is going to be interesting going forward.

 

[gIzzE]

Just had a look at the new 1.4tfsi cylinder on demand A3 sportback.

Audi have a fuel comparison calculator.

Looking at the 1.4tfsi COD s-line vs the 2.0tdi s-tronic s-line doing 30,000 miles a year and using the urban figure (worst case scenario) I would save £623 in fuel over 3 years.

However, the petrol is £2930 cheaper, and if the residuals are set by Audi being the same (but that £2930 is manual vs s-tronic) it will be quite a bit cheaper over 3 years to go petrol.

I am going to book one for the day and report back.



https://www.audi.co.uk/content/audi...BHC\1\MSIBN7V\GPQDPQD\GPX4PX4\GWQVWQV\MLRA2PF

 

[markjay]

I drive at moderate speeds, do not accelerate very hard, and take corners slowly. I am therefore impartial to any performance bias, and either petrol or diesel engines will be more than powerful enough for my needs.

Said that... I do note that diesel has no real footprint in racing or performance cars. There are a few odd-ones-out, such as the AMG C30 Diesel of ten years ago, or BMW's racing a diesel-powered 5-series, or the Ghibli Diesel etc, but the fact remains that the vast majority of high-performance and race cars are petrol powered.

Again, I am not in that market sector so this has little impact on my choice of engine, but just to say that Diesel and Petrol are simply two very different beasts, with either one being able to do things that the other just can't.