EU Referendum

[geraldrobins]

Whatever happens, it is going to be a close run thing. If we remain, it will be very interesting to see what happens at the next general election.

2015 election result

Conservatives 330 seats with 11.3m votes
Labour 232 seats with 9.3m votes
UKIP 1 seat with 3.8m votes
Lib dems 8 seats with 2.4m votes
SNP 56 seats with just 1.4m votes

Removed


Looking at the above, how can 1.6m scottish voters get 56 seats when 3.8m english voters get 1 seat? That is so wrong on all levels.

That's a very good point but I suppose the constituencies are allocated on a geographical area not population.

 

[grober]

UKIP 1 seat with 3.8m votes
3.8m english voters get 1 seat---???????????


Were there no UKIP candidates in Scotland then? Just keeping the record straight!

http://stv.tv/news/politics/316781-...n-scotland-for-the-uk-parliamentary-election/

If that link doesn't work-- there were Scottish UKIP candidates by the way -------this might explain why- UKIP in scotland has been reft with internal disputes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36185634


Sorry if this appears to introduce party politics into this thread but its an attempt to correct misconceptions of fact rather than express political opinion

 

[d w124]

The EU is by no means perfect, but regardless of what you decide tomorrow, please consider that the 3M EU citizens who live in Britain are not your enemies and most of us are just “normal people”, living next to you, doing the same jobs as you and interacting with you every day.

The migrant situation isn't aimed at someone like yourself
I like you lived here for 14 years and I'm not an EU citizen
Again like yourself I worked and payed taxes through out,never claimed a penny

The problem here isn't with working class but with those that take a pi$$ out of the system and don't contribute nothing

Due to my line of work I see this day in day out and yes it does bother me a lot

 

[Deleted96908]

I think the BBC have been pretty unbiased. The debates have been evenly represented and the last few day they have interviewed stayers and leavers alike.

I agree although not sure they are approaching their coverage in the most appropriate way. Simply interviewing and reinterviewing the usual suspects isn't very enlightening. We just hear the same dead dogmas over and over again.

I'm drawn to the Soviet Trotsky trials in the 30s. Trotsky was repeatedly tried for treason in absentia and repeatedly found guilty thanks to the 'confessions' of so called anti revolutionary co-conspirators. Most of the West were taken in by this citing the confessions as evidence of guilt.

To counter this Trotsky's sympathisers in the US organised a public sponsored mirror trial (IIRC in Mexico where Trotsky was exiled). It served its purpose (in grand jury fashion) in presenting a different perpective on an issue that had to that date been very one sided.

I'm wondering whether similar publicly sponsored hearings would have been more helpful in getting to the truth of the matter wrt to referendum - with witnesses called to give evidence rather than being allowed to showboat on their own terms as has been the case in the referendum.

 

[Red C220]

If we do leave the EU I think we should go somewhere warm like the Caribbean.

 

[markjay]

..The problem here isn't with working class but with those that take a pi$$ out of the system and don't contribute nothing....

'Immigration' is actually three separate issues:

a. Immigrants from outside the EU.

b. Immigrants from the EU who come to the UK for work.

c. Immigrants from the EU who come here for free healthcare and for our Benefits system.

We all agree that (c) is bad for the UK. Opinions are divided on whether (b) is actually good or bad for us. And (a) has nothing to do with Brexit.

The difficulty for me is that too often I see people who instead of looking at figures to determine the size and impact of each of the above, simply pack the three together playing on people's Xenophobia and suggesting that 'Immigration is bad for us' and Brexit will fix it all.

I have seen some very insightful comments on here - but sadly not everyone seems to be able to keep their wits about when it comes to discussing Immigration.

 

[geraldrobins]

I agree although not sure they are approaching their coverage in the most appropriate way. Simply interviewing and reinterviewing the usual suspects isn't very enlightening. We just hear the same dead dogmas over and over again.

I'm drawn to the Soviet Trotsky trials in the 30s. Trotsky was repeatedly tried for treason in absentia and repeatedly found guilty thanks to the 'confessions' of so called anti revolutionary co-conspirators. Most of the West were taken in by this citing the confessions as evidence of guilt.

To counter this Trotsky's sympathisers in the US organised a public sponsored mirror trial (IIRC in Mexico where Trotsky was exiled). It served its purpose (in grand jury fashion) in presenting a different perpective on an issue that had to that date been very one sided.

I'm wondering whether similar publicly sponsored hearings would have been more helpful in getting to the truth of the matter wrt to referendum - with witnesses called to give evidence rather than being allowed to showboat on their own terms as has been the case in the referendum.

I meant that recently they have been interviewing members of the public, small business owners and farmers etc.

 

[mattc]

I thought it very telling that the head of the German CBI saying yesterday that tariffs would be very very foolish in the event of Brexit. So that's German business warning it's politicans not to be stupid. If we do vote to leave let's see whether Germany supports the Brussels line as per Junckers yesterday or listens to it industry.

I will be voting out later as the end game IS a United States of Europe and I do not want that.

 

[ChrisEdu]

Personally, I feel that the whole immigration issue has been blown out of proportion and has almost acted as a smokescreen for more pertinent issues, such as the opaque nature in which the EU operates, the issue of a European army, whether a EU superstate is in our benefits, etc...

Alas, it's been the usual scream, shout and make a lot of noise type of campaign that does nobody any favours and just makes everyone involved look bad.

 

[Bellow]

I thought it very telling that the head of the German CBI saying yesterday that tariffs would be very very foolish in the event of Brexit. So that's German business warning it's politicans not to be stupid. If we do vote to leave let's see whether Germany supports the Brussels line as per Junckers yesterday or listens to it industry.

You want to play Russian roulette. And what if the chamber is loaded?

I will be voting out later as the end game IS a United States of Europe and I do not want that.

It will be that whether we are in or out - but we have an exemption on further unification - and if we are out we will have no influence whatsoever. Unmoored, drifting in the Atlantic until Uncle Sam scoops us up. Remember America? The country that seduced us into invading Iraq - when our European allies had better sense.

 

[Deleted96908]

You want to play Russian roulette. And what if the chamber is loaded?

That's ok, people don't mind being shot in the head as long as they shoot themselves...

 

[markjay]

...Alas, it's been the usual scream, shout and make a lot of noise type of campaign that does nobody any favours and just makes everyone involved look bad.

I agree.

 

[markjay]

I thought it very telling that the head of the German CBI saying yesterday that tariffs would be very very foolish in the event of Brexit. So that's German business warning it's politicans not to be stupid. If we do vote to leave let's see whether Germany supports the Brussels line as per Junckers yesterday or listens to it industry.

I will be voting out later as the end game IS a United States of Europe and I do not want that.

We don't know what tomorrow will bring, but there are definitely two opposing camps in the EU as far as post-Brexit goes.

The EU business community is obviously in favour of 'business as usual'. But EU politicians are adamant that if the UK leaves it must be 'thought a lesson' that will act as deterrent to other members states contemplating their own Brexit. A thriving UK outside the EU is seen by some as the beginning of the end for the EU.

So it is not at all clear which will have the upper hand - business or politics.

 

[mattc]

What friends eh. So we have a democratic motion and the people vote to leave a system they are no langer happy with; Brussels gets the hump and wants to put a gun to our head and you would be OK with that? Thats your excuse for staying. I simply cannot agree with that so the few can continue with the "European project" that is proving more and more unpopular around the continent.

 

[mattc]

The money will win as usual...That's why I don't think we will actually get Brexit this time.

 

[Bellow]

What friends eh. So we have a democratic motion and the people vote to leave a system they are no langer happy with; Brussels gets the hump and wants to put a gun to our head and you would be OK with that? Thats your excuse for staying. I simply cannot agree with that so the few can continue with the "European project" that is proving more and more unpopular around the continent.

Unpopular with far right groups who are tapping into the disquiet created by recession. The rise of fascism off the back of troubled economic situations. The warnings from the past are clear to all - but ignored.

The money will win as usual...That's why I don't think we will actually get Brexit this time.

Makes you wonder where the real power lies. Remain or leave, the markets control us more than any other entity. Take back control - way too late.

The money will win as usual...That's why I don't think we will actually get Brexit this time.

Good point. We can always have another vote to leave if we remain. Leaving will be final.

 

[markjay]

What friends eh. So we have a democratic motion and the people vote to leave a system they are no langer happy with; Brussels gets the hump and wants to put a gun to our head and you would be OK with that? Thats your excuse for staying. I simply cannot agree with that so the few can continue with the "European project" that is proving more and more unpopular around the continent.

Nice or not... if we leave, we will be putting the EU in a corner fighting for its own survival... I won't blame the EU for doing anything it can in order to save itself.

This might not be a reason for staying as such, but..... we should tell the people things as they are. What troubles me is that some Brexit campaigners insist on telling us that the only possible outcome is 'business as usual'. This is far from being the case.

At least Churchill was being honest with the British people promising blood, toil, tears and sweat.... he did not make false promises of quick victory.

 

[Palfrem]

As the lowest bidder, I hear the Zimbabwe Election Commission have been employed to count the votes

 

[Red C220]

As the lowest bidder, I hear the Zimbabwe Election Commission have been employed to count the votes

Probably still a step up from Florida.

 

[mattc]

So the economic domination of Europe by Germany is acceptable so long as they don't start world wars again. So much for the lessons of history being learnt. The economies of southern Europe have to suffer terrible just so the German economic engine can keep rolling with a relatively weak currency?

When I said this time I meant because Brussels will not be able to help itself and will kick the reforms our leader got into the long grass and the next tranche of legislation will be revealed. It may all become academic because one of the southern economies is going to collapse and the EU will look for the UK to help prop it up (i don't believe the safeguards we currently have will be honoured). All of this will put pressure on our 2020 election and someone will campaign on an anti EU ticket.