M113 Engine in a project car

[BigPaul]

Morning all and Happy New year......So here we go.

I have a clk430, very happy with it and what a great car, so much so, when i started looking round for a new lump to go in an ongoing project, I chose the M113 E50 Engine from a CL500 to go in it!

Let me tell you a bit more about the project car, it's a 1961 Humber Super Snipe.

Now, i didn't just choose the Merc engine by chance, like i said, I own its baby brother in my CLK, and also I've heard of some people putting this modern V8 into some of the Old finial chassis.

Mechanically its a bit of a project with some fabrication of new mounts etc, this is kind of normal in any transplant, but the big is the electronics.

Now before people say it can't be done, i'll point out that I am a fully fledged electronics engineer by trade and have been playing round with cars since I was a nipper.
So, Merc's immobilisers that are part of the key and steering lock, which in turn control the ECU as to whether it will turn on or not, and the part i'm not sure about, does it also immobilise the TCU as well?

I was looking at using an aftermarket ECU from Haltech, seems like good systems and they can also control the Drive by wire throttle body. but is there communication between the TCU and the ECU? what sort of comms is it and does it need to be there for the gear box to work? I'm looking at using the 722.6 gearbox, basic 5 speed job. going tiptronic would be even more work!

So does anyone know if I can flash the original ECU to by-pass the immobiliser side of things as I won't be using/ don't have any of the other car electronics, or the key!

Any help would be greatly appreciated or pointing in the right direction! I'll get pics in and around of the project as it goes on!

 

[andy27168]

Interesting Project, and like you said fitting the engine/gearbox combination in the car itself shouldn't be to much of an issue and no different issues than fitting any other engine gearbox.
As you seem to be aware the problems will be the electronics.
If you are fitting a 722.6 box a 722.6 box could be a tip box as well, if you are going to the extent of fitting a 5 speed box then choosing a tip version really won,t be anymore work, as the tip function is only a bit of additional wiring. Also with the standard non tip box you will have to install a Bowden cable from the selector to the brake pedal to be able to select gears whereas the tip box does this electrically through the brake light switch.
I think you are better off buying a running donor car, a 210 E55 (approx. £1k-1.5k) would be what I would be looking for then removing all the electrics and transplanting it into the car including the EIS, ECU, TCU Etc.
There is a signal into the ECU from the ABS/ESP system so this may have to be coded out (if possible) though fitting the ABS system might be worth considering as you will have everything you need.

 

[BigPaul]

Hi Andy,


I see you're just down the road from me, I'm in Fareham!

I was hoping not to get a donor car as i simply don't have the space for it, and i have a troublesome neighbour as well!

I may have to go down the route of getting rid of this engine and finding a carb version. Its a shame cos I really like the m113 engine!

Also I'm not looking at transplanting anything other than engine and gearbox, everything else will be fabricated to fit!
the car is a column shift manual, so was going to adapt a cable to fit this, fitting a cable to the brake wouldn't be an issue, and obviously replacing the accelerator pedal to suit the drive by wire system is no issue either. they really build cars back in those days and there is plenty of space to do everything i need. I understand why MB would have created the electronics in such a way to make cars more difficult to steal, but my god it does make maintenance a pig for cars that are now considered out of warranty (and for projects like mine!)

 

[nb_racing]

I think it is do-able.

I'm not sure how the EIS and IC would affect things in relation to immobiliser??

The gearbox/engine CAN intergration would be the trickiest thing to sort out, that said, you could fit a manual box from eg SLK320 which should bolt stright on, then run an aftermarket ECU.

I plan to one day drop a 113k into one of these:

1972 MERCEDES BENZ 220D DIESEL W115 CLASSIC MERC LHD CALIFORNIAN NEW MOT UK REG | eBay
:bannana:

 

[BigPaul]

I'm looking at the Caltech Elite series ECU to run the engine, that would/should remove all the need to muck about with immobiliser software, my big question....does the TCU also get a signal regards the immobiliser circuit? does it need to be tied into the ESI system? the Caltech ECU does have can bus integration as well so this should just be a matter of programming what i need, but not sure if the TCU and stock ECU talk to each other in normal running conditions? If the TCU needs communication regards the immobiliser system, thats where this who idea could fall flat on its ****!

 

[BigPaul]

its a good thing I'm an engineer and I like a challenge! will be something special once its done!

 

[nb_racing]

I'm looking at the Caltech Elite series ECU to run the engine, that would/should remove all the need to muck about with immobiliser software, my big question....does the TCU also get a signal regards the immobiliser circuit? does it need to be tied into the ESI system? the Caltech ECU does have can bus integration as well so this should just be a matter of programming what i need, but not sure if the TCU and stock ECU talk to each other in normal running conditions? If the TCU needs communication regards the immobiliser system, thats where this who idea could fall flat on its ****!

Not too sure on the immobiliser side of things to be honest. Iwouldn't have thought the TCU would be involved. It's the EIS and IC that would cause a head ache.

I think the TCU does talk to the engine constantly. That could be a problem, but I don't know how sophisticated the Caltech CAN system is, or how programmable it is.

 

[BigPaul]

I'm in the dilemma of do i go ahead and buy the transmission and TCU that will mate up with the block nice and easily, I want to go for auto because that will be easier to adapt the column shift, so thats probably £300 notes or there about, and then north of £1k for the edu and ignition modules! I'm looking into the CAN bus on the ECU at the moment and seeing what shows up in its software, obviously the TCU will need Power from somewhere, maybe its derived from the ECU normally? Theres certainly a lot of control surfaces available on the ECU, heres the link for the wiring diagram:

http://files.haltech.com/downloads/ESP/Elite_2500_Wiring_Diagram_v2.pdf

worth a look

 

[John Jones Jr]

Let me tell you a bit more about the project car, it's a 1961 Humber Super Snipe.

Great project.

The V8 with a standalone engine management system and a manual gearbox (floor shift) would be my first choice ideally.

 

[carat 3.6]

Great project.

The V8 with a standalone engine management system and a manual gearbox (floor shift) would be my first choice ideally.

That's giving me bad ideas.

 

[C36fan]

Hi Paul a friend of mine is putting a M113 5.4 amg in to a W201 if you want to have a chat with him pm me and I'll put you in contact with him he knows what to do to make it work .

 

[dozypillock]

Great project.

The V8 with a standalone engine management system and a manual gearbox (floor shift) would be my first choice ideally.

When I was younger, you could fit almost any engine into anything else, as long as you could use a welder.
All anything needed was a fuel pump, couple of wires and it would start.
Back then of course, engines had carbs etc, none of this (computer says no) stuff.

I would hate to attempt anything like this these days.

Neil

 

[BigPaul]

haha, funny you should say that Neil, a lot of people are trying to sway me towards ford essex engine or rover V8, but I've been driving mercs for so long and their V8's are such good power houses! C36fan, would love to chat to your friend. I'm also looking down the route of an older merc gear box that will mate unto the block. Basically i like the idea of fuel injection for reliability and fuel economy (the 3 litre inline 6 in it at the moment develops about 120hp at 18mpg) I'm lucky in the sense that I'm an electronics engineer by training so I understand all the wiring and comms side of things, and I have a passion for cars and mechanical working! problem is is trying to find information on how the mercy systems actually work! I think the 722.6 box might be out the window because of the ESP and traction side of system. the system will be married up to a volvo 240 rear axle as the diff's in those can pretty much take anything!
John I reckon the floor shift would be a great way of making it easy, and would be nice to take advantage of a manual box, however, although I'm changing what under the bonnet, i'm trying to keep the cabin fairly standard. So its a column manual shift at the moment, so converting it to a column auto is the easiest route i think.

 

[Buick boy]

I had similar thoughts but using the straight 6 diesel in my 1950 Buick,the Buick engine is straight 8 with 3 speed trans so the diesel has more bhp and touque..or a Soarer v8..good luck with it.

 

[Druk]

The 722.6 box does need canbus to work with the engine ECU, afaik However if you can get the engine to work with a standalone then this guy from Denmark has a standalone to operate the g/box including tip levers. He requires the lever, a TPS and a section of the gearbox plug/cable to make it work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYhNcl7JfsQ


.

 

[John Jones Jr]

John I reckon the floor shift would be a great way of making it easy, and would be nice to take advantage of a manual box, however, although I'm changing what under the bonnet, i'm trying to keep the cabin fairly standard. So its a column manual shift at the moment, so converting it to a column auto is the easiest route i think.

If's an auto only route, see if a four speed auto (722.4 nice & simple with Economy & Standard/'Sport' modes) from the likes of a W126 V8 will mate to the M113, there's a good chance the bellhousing pattern is the same, Carat 3.6 might know the answer. A four speed should work very well with the right diff ratio as the car will be rather light overall. Food for thought if nothing more.

P.s. Maybe too, look at the five speed version (722.5) as it's a four speed 722.4 with an electronically controlled fifth which just might be right up your street?

 

[carat 3.6]

If's an auto only route, see if a four speed auto (722.4 nice & simple with Economy & Standard/'Sport' modes) from the likes of a W126 V8 will mate to the M113, there's a good chance the bellhousing pattern is the same, Carat 3.6 might know the answer. A four speed should work very well with the right diff ratio as the car will be rather light overall. Food for thought if nothing more.

That's the way I would do it.

Run the m113 engine on an aftermarket ecu, you'll get more power out of it and do away with the massively over complicated engine management system. I would go with an Emerald or Link ecu.

Sadly the old 4 speed slush box'es have a different bell housing pattern to the m113, but a 10mm thick adapter plate would soon solve that issue.

One advantage of using the old 4 speed auto, is that you can run a drive cable to the original speedo in your car. The reading would be out a bit, but there are ways around that.

 

[John Jones Jr]

Carat, what about a M119 on standalone with a 722.4/5 ?

 

[carat 3.6]

The m119 is a lovely engine, I prefer it to the m113. I have seen a modified 6.0 m119 with cams, headwork, itb's, ect, and a manual box. Puts out 520hp iirc.

You could rob everything from a early w140 and run an m119 on the original ecu, if you wanted to keep a slush box.

I'm toying with the idea of welding an m117/9 bellhousing onto that m112/3 manual box I have, as even if I did bolt it behind the m113 it would still need standalone to get it running properly.

Or be really silly and mate it to an m120.

 

[C36fan]

Or be really silly and mate it to an m120.

Now we talking!