NCAP tests

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glojo

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Another thread was drifting way off topic but I feel the drifting was worthy of further debate.

I fully accept these tests are sanitized and perhaps might not relate to the real world. However I am firmly of the opinion that because of NCAP testing the modern car is a better vehicle to be in if we are unlucky enough to be involved in an accident?

Having said that I object strongly to those folks that buy large 4x4's solely because they feel they are a safer vehicle?? I would suggest investing the extra money in a driving course which might help the driver avoid being in an accident? I am NOT anti 4x4, I am just against selfish folks that want to drive around in a vehicle without a single thought for other road users, just so long as they are okay!

If someone buys a 4x4 because they like the looks of them... Fine, no problem with that whatsoever. Obviously no problem either with those that buy them because they actually take them off road.

Regards,
John
 
I've seen stats somewhere reporting that you are more likely to be involved in an accident in a 4x4 in the first place, too. High centre of gravity, soft/long travel suspension, higher kerbweight/momentum, and tyres not optimised for road use were the main factors IIRC.

Friend of mine has a titanium plate in her neck after breaking it when the Discovery 2 she was a passenger in rolled.
 
Volvo and SAAB lead the way.

glojo said:
Another thread was drifting way off topic but I feel the drifting was worthy of further debate. I fully accept these tests are sanitized and perhaps might not relate to the real world. However I am firmly of the opinion that because of NCAP testing the modern car is a better vehicle to be in if we are unlucky enough to be involved in an accident? John

Car safety is an aspect of car design which has evolved slowly but has impinged on many aspects of the finished product. I can remember when compulsory wearing of front seat belts was introduced and the fuss it caused at the time. Some people argued vehemently that it was safer to be thrown from the car than restrained by a seat belt-yeah right! :confused:

However this one small piece of legislation prompted the following eventually .
1. Crude 2 piece lap seat belts evolved to the 3 point inertial reel type of today.
2. Once people were effectively restrained it was realised that survival also depended on effective preservation of the passenger compartment. So the safety cell and crumple zones underwent significant futher development.
3. It was realised that for effective restraint the seat played an important role so anti-submarining seats and seatbelt tensioners and antiwhiplash head restrains were developed.
4. It was then found that in collisions people could get damaged by the safety cell they were contained in. Front airbags followed.
5.Finally side collisions were addressed as the technology became available to combat these with side torso and head airbags, side door re-enforcement, door/sill overlap, re-enforcement of side impact structures and pivoting C pillar design etc.

I wonder what the "thrown from the car" brigade are saying now???

Several car companies were consistently at the forefront of these developments and still spend lots of money studying real-life accident situations in addition to more controlled laboratory type tests. Their products consistently do better than the opposition in the formal crash tests like NCAP. Volvo and SAAB historically take the honours here with Mercedes probably in third place? Now Volvo is owned by Ford and SAAB by GM Mercedes by Daimler Chrysler so it remains to be seen what the future holds.

With the "Passive Safety" well established it would appear that "Active Safety" is the next area to be developed and EURO-NCAP have already come out strongly in favour of stabilty control and lots of "real life" accident research backs this up . http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/recommendation.php

Ironically manufacturers of large 4x4 vehicles have found it almost essential to incorporate "Stability Control Systems" into their model designs to compensate for the inherent instability of this type of vehicle and again accident figures back this up.
 
grober said:
Some people argued vehemently that it was safer to be thrown from the car than restrained by a seat belt-yeah right! :confused:
Don't forget some of the silly exemptions! Taxi drivers, plus drivers of emergency vehicles :rolleyes: :D In fairness and with the greatest of respect, I have never seen a driver of an emergency vehicle not wearing a seat belt. Taxi drivers though believe they are exempt from either accidents or injury!! Whilst beating this drum, or excellent point you have raised.... Motor cycles; thankfully the demonstrations are getting less frequent about the wearing of helmets! Unbelievable that folks want to even contemplate not wearing protection!! :rolleyes: :eek: Not wearing protection can be a killer :eek: :eek:

The passenger side of our 210 was rammed. My daughter was a front seat passenger and her friend was sat directly behind her, thankfully neither girl was injured, and both nearside doors could still be opened AND closed. :) :) The offending Peugeot was beyond economic repair having all the front stove in (It had to be towed away)

I have just watched an Al Jazeera article which stated over 2m people die each year in South Africa from Aids.... Protection, you know it makes sense :D Average life expectancy in South Africa... 47yrs

Regards,
John the Off Topic King
 
Do 4x4's have have to comply with NCAP testing, some years ago, I thought they didn't have to, they were in the same bracket as commercial vehicles.
 
The 4x4 SUV gives a perception of safety to drivers. Few are bought by people that need a large 4x4. Many are driven by women. Many are driven by people who have little or no understanding of the dynamics of driving.
Modern cars because of their many safety features give people a sense of invulnerability.
In the various reviews and TV programmes I have seen about 4x4 SUV safety the following comes out;
4x4 SUV's have a greater braking distance than an equivalent sized car.
4x4's give more grip in certain situations. This is taken by some people to mean they have better road holding - they do not. 4x4 SUV's are more unstable because of their relatively short wheelbases and higher centre of gravity.
4x4 SUV's have more accidents
The death rate in accidents involving 4x4 SUV's is higher than that for cars. It is not clear whether this is to occupants or those on the outside.

When people are confident they take more risks.
 
grober said:
Volvo and SAAB historically take the honours here with Mercedes probably in third place?
I just searched and found some stuff on the daimlerchrysler website.
First Occupants Safety Cell
In 1951 Daimler-Benz registered the occupants safety cell for a patent. This invention of Béla Barényi is still the basis for passive safety in automobile construction. In 1959 Mercedes-Benz presented the world’s first safety cell with integrated crumple zones for the “tailfin” model.

First Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS)
The Mercedes-Benz S-Class of 1978 marked the world premiere of the anti-lock braking system (ABS). In 1981 Mercedes-Benz introduced the first ABS for commercial vehicles.

First Airbag and Belt Pretensioner
In 1981 Mercedes-Benz presented the world’s first driver airbag and belt pretensioner in the S-Class.

First Acceleration Skid Control (ASR) for Commercial Vehicles
In 1986 ABS was supplemented by Acceleration Skid Control (ASR) for trucks
and buses with air brake. With ASR, a skidding wheel can be stopped individually which greatly improves traction, as well as stability during acceleration and steering.

First Electronic Stability Program (ESP®)
In 1995 the Electronic Stability Program (ESP®) was developed and introduced in the Mercedes-Benz S 600 Coupé. Mercedes-Benz supplied as the first automobile brand since 1999 all its cars with ESP® as standard and
makes with it a contribution to the improvement of road safety. In 2002 Mercedes-Benz introduced the first Electronic Stability Program (ESP®) for trucks and vans.

First Lane Assistant for Trucks
In 2000, Mercedes-Benz introduced the first lane assistant in the Actros. Telligent Lane Assistant warns the driver when there is imminent danger of drifting out of lane. Should the truck start to deviate from the lane unintentionally, a loud “rumble strip” noise sounds on the side where the danger is.

First Stability Control for Trucks
In 2000, Mercedes-Benz presented the first Actros with Telligent Stability Control. Stability control recognizes potential instability – for example the risk of braking away or skidding – in advance and counteracts this by means of
specific intervention from the brake system.

First Preventive Occupant Protection (PRE-SAFE®)
In 2002, Mercedes-Benz presented PRE-SAFE®, the first preventive occupant protection system. PRE-SAFE® recognizes a potential collision in advance and activates special protection systems even before the impact.
These include new belt pre-tensioners and automatically adjusting seats.

First Active Brake Assist for Trucks and PRESAFE® Brake for Cars
The first active brake assist system will be available in the Mercedes-Benz Actros in autumn 2006. Active Brake Assist automatically triggers a full application of the brake, if a collision with a vehicle ahead cannot be avoided.
The PRE-SAFE® Brake will be available for the S-Class and the new luxury CL-Class in autumn 2006. In collaboration with Brake Assist PLUS, the PRE-SAFE® brake is able to prevent a collision or significantly reduce the severity of the accident.

What do Volvo and Saab claim to have invented then? ;)
 
Shude said:
I just searched and found some stuff on the daimlerchrysler website.


What do Volvo and Saab claim to have invented then? ;)

Didn't Volvo pioneer seatbelts?
 
BTB 500 said:
Didn't Volvo pioneer seatbelts?
Likely.

Seat belts were first invented by George Cayley in the 1800s. Seat belts were introduced in aircraft for the first time in 1913, by Adolphe Pegoud, who became the first man to fly a plane upside-down. However, seat belts did not become common on aircraft until the 1930s.

The automotive seat belt was introduced into the United States by Kenneth Ligon and his brother, Bob Ligon, whose patented quick release seat belt.

The AutoCrat Safety Belt, was the first (two point) seat belt installed as original equipment in the US by Ford in its 1956 model year. Robert McNamara was the man behind a whole set of safety measures introduced by Ford that year.

Australia was the first country to make seat belts compulsory in vehicles. However, they were not required by law in the US on passenger vehicles until the 1968 model year.

The first seat belt to be included as standard in mass-produced vehicles was on the 1959 Volvo Amazon. It was Swedish engineer Nils Bohlin who patented the modern three-point belt design and gave it to Volvo.
 
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Shude said:
What do Volvo and Saab claim to have invented then? ;)

Crash test dummies?:p :D :D
 
Shude said:
I just searched and found some stuff on the daimlerchrysler website.


What do Volvo :rolleyes: :rolleyes: claim to have invented then? ;)
The dodgy antique dealer??? :D

John
 
Volvo and SAAB contribution to Car Safety-the list.

Shude said:
What do Volvo and Saab claim to have invented then? ;)

Sorry I didn't get back on the various points you raised but been busy on other things. It certainly wasn't my intention to minimise Mercedes' contribution to car safety which is considerable. The reason I put the Swedish manufacturers first was that safety seemed to be at the core of their car design philosophy rather than just one aspect of it (albeit an important one) of Mercedes. My feeling is that Volvo and SAAB lead the way by adopting many of the latest safety features as standard across their model range rather than options on their top of the range models like BMW and Mercedes. They used this of course as a major selling point for their cars when many others were extolling performance or appearance. In doing this they encouraged/forced other manufacturers to do the same to compete. They were helped markedly in this by the safety campaigns started by Ralph Nader (Unsafe at any speed!) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_nader in the USA. Their cars demonstrated to large numbers of people, not a select few, that safety was possible in a mass produced automobile which they could afford to purchase.



In terms of the items you listed from the Daimler Chrysler web site I would make the following comments. Registered for a patent I cant dispute the safety cell/crumple zone claim. However I,m not sold on words like "marked" "presented" and "introduced" since their meaning is vague (perhaps deliberately so in ADSPEAK) :rolleyes:
To take one example the first ABS type systems were developed in the 50s for the aviation industry and the Dunlop MAXARET system was used on the Jensen Interceptor in the 60s. Kesley Hayes introduced an electronic system in 1970 on one of their models. Both pre-date the familiar electronic system employed by Mercedes -INVENTED by Bosch introduced on the Mercedes S class AND BMW 7 SERIES in 1978. The first manufacturer to introduce ABS across its model range was evidently FORD in the 1985 Grenada range.:crazy: So I would rather say that Mercedes was an early "adopter" possibly "joint developer" of new safety measures but the "invention" lies with companies such as TEVES or BOSCH.

Here's a list of safety features with dates adopted/invented/ made available in a mass produced vehicle by Volvo and SAAB. Sorry if its a bit long. :eek:

Safety innovations in Volvo Cars.
1940’s
1944 Safety cage
1944 Laminated windscreen
1950’s
1954 Defroster vents for windscreen
1956 Windscreen washers
1957 Anchor points for 2–point safety belts front
1958 Anchor points for 2–point safety belts rear
1959 3–point front safety belts standard- 9 years before it was mandatory in the USA.
1960’s
1960 Padded instrument panel
1964 Disc brakes front
1964 First rearward–facing child safety seat prototype tested
1966 Rear windscreen defroster
1966 Disc brakes all around
1966 Dual split triangular braking system
1966 Crumple zones front and rear
1966 Safety door–locks
1967 Safety belt rear seats
1968 Head restraints front
1969 Inertia reel safety belts
1969 Heated rear windscreen
1970’s
1971 Reminder safety belt
1972 3–point safety belts – rear
1972 Rearward–facing child safety seat
1972 Childproof locks on rear doors
1972 Warning lights (hazard)
1973 Side collision protection
1973 Collapsible steering wheel
1974 Energy absorbing bumpers
1974 Safe location of fuel tank
1974 Multistage impact absorbing steering column
1974 Bulb integrity sensor1974 Headlight wiper/washer
1975 Day running lamps
1975 Braking system with stepped bore master cylinder
1978 Child safety booster cushion
1980’s
1982 "Anti–submarining" protection
1982 Fog lamps front
1982 Fog lamps rear
1982 Warning lights in opened door
1982 Wide angle rear view mirror
1984 ABS anti–locking brakes
1985 ETC – Electronic Traction Control
1986 Brake lights in rear window
1986 Three–point safety belt centre rear seat
1987 Mechanical safety belt pre–tensioner
1987 Airbag – driver
1990’s
1990 Integrated child safety cushion in centre rear seat
1991 SIPS – Side Impact Protection System
1991 Automatic height adjusting safety belt
1992 Reinforced rear seats in estate models
1992 Passenger airbag front
1993 Three–point inertia–reel safety belts – all rear positions
1994 SIPS–bag, side airbag
1995 DSA – Dynamic Stability Assistance
1995 Integrated child safety cushion outer rear seats
1997 ROPS – Roll Over Protection System (C70)
1998 WHIPS – Whiplash Protection System
1998 IC – Inflatable Curtain
1998 STC – Stability and Traction Control
1998 DSTC – Dynamic Stability and Traction Control
1998 EBD – Electronic Brake Distribution
2000’s
2000 ISOFIX anchorages with rearward–facing child safety seat
2000 Dual Stage Airbag
2001 SCC – Volvo Safety Concept Car
2002 RSC – Roll Stability Control
2002 ROPS – Roll Over Protection System (XC90)
2002 New integrated child seat 2nd row (XC90)
2002 Lower Cross Member (XC90)
2002 New compatible front design (XC90)
2002 Safe 3rd row seats (XC90)
2002 New Front Structure (XC90)
2003 New Front Structure (S40, V50)
2003 IDIS – Intelligent Driver Information System
2004 BLIS – Blind Spot Information System
2004 Water repellent glass


SAAB SAFETY INNOVATIONS.

1947 The Saab 92 is presented, with a streamlined, stressed-skin steel body.
1958 The GT 750 is Saab's first model to have factory fitted seat belts.
1961 An air "slicer", intended to keep the rear window clear, is introduced on the Saab 95 in March.
1962 From January, all cars for Sweden are fitted with seat belts in front.
1963 Diagonally divided brake system with double brake circuits on all Saabs of 1964 models.
1967 The Saab 99 is presented, among other things with a double-jointed steering column of safety type, a safety body with crumple zones at front and rear and the starter switch on the floor between the front seats.
1970 Headlamp wipers and washers, a world "first", are introduced on the 1971 models.
1971 Two unique Saab innovations are presented on the 1972 models: an electrically heated driving seat and self-repairing (up to 8 kph, 5 mph) bumpers.
1972 Protecting members in the doors and glass-fibre headlinings as crash protection are introduced on the "99s" of 1973.
1973 Front seats with integrated head restraints are introduced on the 1974 models.
1978 Yet another world "first" is introduced with the Saab 900: the unique compartment air filter. The Saab 900 also has a safety-type steering column with a telescopically collapsible steering shaft and a sheet-steel crumple bellows.
1981 A wide-angle rear-view mirror is introduced on the driver's side of the 1982 models.
1982 Beginning with the 1983 models, Saab fits all its cars with asbestos-free brake linings.
1986 Automatic belt tensioners are introduced on the 1986 models of the Saab 9000.
1986 The Saab 9000 of the 1987 model becomes the first front-wheel-drive car to offer ABS brakes.
1988 Airbag on the driver's side, Saab Traction Control .
1993: Saab Safeseat - The Saab Safeseat was introduced as a safety design philosophy. The aim is to ensure that all the interior safety features interact correctly and provide maximum protection.
Night Panel - This function blacks out the instrument panel, apart from the speedometer. This reduces the risk of distraction while driving at night. All the systems still work in the background and the appropriate guage or lamp will light up when the driver's attention is required.
1996 Saab presents an active head restraint (SAHR, Saab Active Head Restraint) that is in course of development and goes in production with the new Saab 9-5.
1997 Yet another Saab innovation: ventilated front seats. It is the first time a passenger car, the new Saab 9-5, is offered with this feature.
Comsense - Saab introduced a system that reduces the risk of distraction by briefly delaying incoming phone calls and lower priority alerts when the brakes or turn indicators are activated. This helps the driver to stay focused, for example when turning, overtaking or approaching a crossing.
Date of early introduction unknown.
"Moose avoidance" and "Moose crash" tests to determine how well their cars and passengers will fare in an encounter with an 836-pound mammal. – re-enforced windscreen surround A pillars and roof.

edit:- looking at all the evidence perhaps the 3 companies have contributed in different ways. Mercedes as a high cost luxury-end car maker is prepared to adopt/ back new advanced technology first as it becomes available. Volvo and Saab are good at incorporating it into more mainstream models. We can can certainly acknowledge the contribution they have all made in making the cars we drive safer.
 
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What about small cars? they all are starting to look identical (Corsa, Clio, Fiesta etc)

All have extemely high roofs and ultra-smooth fronts due to all the safetly requirments, dont get me wrong - the more safer cars the better. Only trouble is that in say 10 years from now, car designers are going to have no options for creativiy left and we will all be driving cars they look completely the same! :(
 
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I never said Volvos and Saabs LOOKED good.;) ;)

Only trouble is that in say 10 years from now, car designers are going to have no options for creativity left and we will all be driving driving cars they look completely the same!

If theres any petrol left.:( :(
 
grober said:
Here's a list of safety features with dates adopted/invented/ made available in a mass produced vehicle by Volvo and SAAB. Sorry if its a bit long. :eek:
1973 Side collision protection
1991 SIPS – Side Impact Protection System
Hi Graeme,
Well done for taking the time to present all that information.

I missed the 1973 entry and saw the 1991 SIPS information, I thought... 'ang on! :) (I was born in London) The old Volvo 240 series had blooming great big scaffolding bars fitted inside the doors, then I re-read through your list and found the 1973 entry.

Volvo have an excellent P.R. department and have always made safety a major selling point.

John
 
swedish psyche!

Here is a rather good article which speculates why Sweden produced cars with an emphasis on safety. http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5693
quote:- Ford bought Volvo in 1998 and GM finished its long-anticipated purchase of Saab in 2000. Both have charged the Swedish automakers with leading the safety development efforts of their companies. It remains to be seen if Saab and Volvo can stay true to their Swedish roots and carry on their safety legacies in this melting pot society.
Sounds hopeful but production of the new epsilon 2 platformed SAAB 9-3 and 9-5 is rumoured to be destined for GM's Opel plant in Germany perhaps diluting the Swedish influence a bit more.

edit:- It is interesting to speculate if any manufacturers do specifically engineer their cars to get a good NCAP rating rather than trying to build a safe car from their own in house data and design priorities which may not achieve the top rating but perhaps offer a better overall safety package in the real world. For example I was slightly perturbed to find one manufacturer's car given an extra star to its rating for " having better means of promoting passengers to wear seatbelts".:crazy:
 
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