Should I complain again to Mercedes?

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MainMan

Active Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
316
Car
SLK 320
I recently had a problem, for the second time, with the catalytic converter on my SLK320. The first cat went at 15k miles (nearside cat broke up) and Mercedes replaced it under warranty. This cat then broke up (nearside again) after 8k miles. This time it was out of warranty and Mercedes refused any goodwill payment and also refused to say why not. Their suggestion was that I pay them £1287 to put new cats on. I don’t think so.

I decided to get an after-market cat (at a cost of £460), partly because I was unwilling to be ripped of by Mercedes and partly because it didn’t seem to me that the OEM parts were of very good quality. All seemed well for a few hundred miles until the Check Engine Light came on, and the code indicated that the nearside cat was of “insufficient efficiency”. After trying several independents (including GF) and being told that the only solution was to fit the correct part (“after-market cats are low quality” etc), I decided that there was a possibility that the problem was the Lambda sensor. So, at great expense, (£130 each sensor) I had the pre-cat and post-cat sensor replaced and the code cleared. This seems to have cured the problem.

This got me thinking about what had happened. I think the probable scenario is that the pre-cat nearside Lambda sensor became faulty very early in the life of the car. This caused the cat to overheat and break up. The CEL didn’t come on because the Merc cats are so over-engineered that they can clean up anything – for a time at least. Mercedes then replaced the cat without investigating the problem. They didn’t replace the sensor, so the new cat just broke up again in double quick time. When I then put a new (slightly lower efficiency) cat on the post-cat sensor rapidly began complaining because the cat didn’t have the capacity to clean the emissions up.

The moral of the story is that one should always check WHY the cat broke up. So why didn't Mercedes check this when the first one went. When the second one went in the same way why didn't they put 2 and 2 together? It seems obvious to me now, and I’m not a mechanic.

Although I can’t actually prove that my theory is correct, I’m pretty sure that this is what happened. The circumstantial evidence is very strong. So I’m inclined to take further action and complain again to Mercedes. The only thing is, I’m wondering if I’ll end up even worse off than before. They could just reject my claim again and then revoke my Mobilo guarantee because I’ve fitted a non-OEM part. What d’you reckon? Call it quits, or push the claim further.
 
well I'm no expert but my thoughts are,
I like your logic
You need advice
You have sunk enough into this problem already
Can you get some kind of no win no fee arrangement?
 
I would complain not only to the dealer but to MB customer services.
I would say from experience and from comments from various sites though that MB's attitude to dealing with complaints is very bad.
 
Time to use your thinking head (what I am going to suggest will cost you less then £120 if you lose and nothing if you win).

First Letter

Dear Messer Mercedes Dealer Ltd,
Re: car reg

In regard to the above vehicle and replacement cat that was fixed under the warranty at your dealership.

As you are aware the problem recreated it self after a further 8,000 miles. I again replaced the part, this time at an independent garage as you would not cover the work under the cars warranty.

Unfortunately as you are aware the problem again recreated itself on the second replacement. At this point I decided to have the matter investigated by an independent garage. The result of this was both Lambda sensors where replaced. This has resulted in the cure of the problem at the cost of £300 + VAT.

It is now evident that this was the original fault on the car which caused premature failure of the parts.

As you will realise if the problem with the Lambda sensors had been rectified at the time of the warranty work undertaken on the cat, the second failure would not occurred.

Taking the above into consideration I respectfully request reimbursing for the following:

(Don’t put this in, as your can not claim VAT remember to include all prices including the VAT do not mention the vat in this section as you are not legally allowed to claim VAT, above is ok as you legally have to pay VAT)

1. Cat & Labour: £450 for work as per copy invoice # 1233434 enclosed from Messer tom grater ltd.

2. Lambda & Labour: £350 for work as per copy invoice # 123344 enclosed from Messer tom grater ltd.

I request you decision no latter the 28th November 2005.

Yours Sincerely,


Mr John Smith

second letter

Dear Messer Mercedes Dealer Ltd,
Re: car reg

g Despite our previous efforts to settle this matter, the money remains unpaid and is now overdue.

Places forward the money within seven days of service of this letter.

Failure to make payment within seven days will result in this matter proceeding to County Court.

Sincerely,


Mr John Smith

Next step county court

Use this as your calim.

In regard to your reg number and replacement cat that was fixed under the warranty by the defendant.

The problem with the cat recreated itself after a further 8,000 miles. I again replaced the part, this time at an independent garage as the defendant would not cover the work under the cars warranty.

The problem again recreated itself on the second replacement. At this point I decided to have the matter investigated by an independent garage. The result of this was both Lambda sensors where replaced. This has resulted in the cure of the problem at the cost of £300 + VAT.

It is now evident that this was the original fault on the car which caused premature failure of the parts.

If the problem with the Lambda sensors had been rectified at the time of the warranty work undertaken on the cat by the defendant, the second failure would not have occurred.

Taking the above into consideration I requested reimbursing for the following on the 14th November 2005:


Cat & Labour: £450 for work as per invoice # 1233434 from Messer tom grater ltd.

Lambda & Labour: £350 for work as per invoice # 123344 from Messer tom grater ltd.

The defendant then

a) refused
b) did not reply
c) tried to delay matters farther
d) offered part payment

I then on the 25th November served on the defendant by letter my intention to take legal action in the county courts if payment was not made with in 7 days.

No payment was made after 15 days.
 
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You will have to fill in all the fine detail.

Full name and address of the person(s) you wish to make a claim again
Which in this case I think will be a company.

Facts relating to the claim e.g. dates, times, events, invoice numbers etc.

This is not for the trail, but an outline for the courts and more importantly for the defendant knows what he is defending.

Do not mention witness at this point, this happens latter (note: the county courts prefer witness statements not witness at court).

Do not lie any where on the form. Do not include unnecessary information (such as you used 3rd party parts, you are claiming on the grounds that they coursed you hardship by poor service, note: if in court they say that you used 3rd party parts point out to the district judge that this is meaningless as if the car was fixed you would never of needed to buy a 2nd cat).

I have a pdf of the claim forms but even zipped it 102kb and the limit is 100kb i can always email it you.
 
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Thanks for the replies. Those are excellent letters Zooman, concise and clear. I must admit I hadn't thought of taking any legal action but maybe it's not a bad idea. The dealers are useless and deserve to be taught a lesson. The only action they can take against me is to revoke the Mobilo cover and the 30 year cover, but I guess they're both cons anyway - there's always a reason why you're not covered as I found when I tried to use Mobilo.
 
Presumably the Mobilo cover is already void as you have a non-MB cat fitted?

The problem as I see it is that you have no firm proof/evidence of what caused the problem - as you said, this is just a theory. What mileage has the car done since the Lambda sensors were replaced (more than 8,000 I assume)?

As Zooman says, it's worth a try. But as you went outside the dealer network as soon as the warranty expired (giving M-B no opportunity to fix ... even if this was going to be unlikely and expensive!) I very much doubt they would pay out.

Anyway, good luck and I hope your car continues to be healthy now :)
 
BTB 500 said:
But as you went outside the dealer network as soon as the warranty expired (giving M-B no opportunity to fix ... even if this was going to be unlikely and expensive!) I very much doubt they would pay out.

Not true. The car has continued to be serviced by the dealer despite being out of warranty. Also when the cat started rattling I took it to the dealer who inspected it and said it needed a new cat. When I pointed out that this would be the third and maybe they should check for some underlying problem they were blank faced. I then contacted the Customer "Service" department both on the phone and in writing - where I mentioned that maybe the fault was somewhere other than the cat. They spent nearly 2 weeks "investigating" the problem and consulting with the dealer. The sole outcome of this was that they told me that there would be no goodwill payment. When I queried whether the dealer should be investigating any underlying problems, they plainly had done nothing about this. Exactly what they had done in the 2 weeks when my car was off the road, I don't know. These people are seriously incompetent.

The bottom line is that if I had trusted it to the dealer again, I would have been relieved of £1287 and would now be on my way to destroying a third cat. As it is it's cost me about £850 and I've got to the bottom of the problem. The interesting thing is that I went outside the dealership because I had come to the conclusion that the Mercedes cats were rubbish and I didn't want another one at any price, let alone £1287. As it turns out, it seems that the Merc cats are blameless. The problem was almost certainly a faulty Lambda probe - which can happen on any car - which was compounded by the fact that the dealers are utterly useless.

It's yet another case where the problem is more with the Mercedes dealer than the quality of the product itself.

On the subject of whether I've lost my Mobilo cover, that depends on Mercedes knowing that I've put a non OEM part on. At the moment they don't know, and my guess is that their clueless mechanics would never notice the non-standard cat. If I complain again, it's obviously a different matter.
 
Hang on. Just a moment.

I have taken companies to court: I have been there swaeting whilst the judge eyeballs the facts and I await his ruling. And sometimes I have lost.

The fact is this: you need to prove that the lambda sensor was the root cause of all your expense. While the evidence points to this, the facts may not and if you went to court you will probably lose as you have not proven your case 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

To make your case bullet proof you will need to spend money upfront and get two independant engineer's reports to support you court claim.

Please do not think I am being unhelpful: I am just sharing my experience of the court system!!

If I were you:

1. Get reports x2.
2. Get solicitor.
3. Get solicitor to write to dealer/DC with facts and invite for out of court settlement (if you write yourself they will add your letter to the 'another whinger' pile; if it is through a solicitor it gets elevated to the 'primary concerns team' and things get moving).
 
My thoughts...

MainMan said:
I recently had a problem, for the second time, with the catalytic converter on my SLK320. The first cat went at 15k miles (nearside cat broke up) and Mercedes replaced it under warranty. This cat then broke up (nearside again) after 8k miles. This time it was out of warranty and Mercedes refused any goodwill payment and also refused to say why not. Their suggestion was that I pay them £1287 to put new cats on. I don’t think so.

Why ? Too much ? Why'd you buy an expensive car then ?

MainMan said:
I decided to get an after-market cat (at a cost of £460), partly because I was unwilling to be ripped of by Mercedes and partly because it didn’t seem to me that the OEM parts were of very good quality.

So you willingly used non manufacturer parts, despite being advised this is exactly what you should do to maintain warranty.

MainMan said:
All seemed well for a few hundred miles until the Check Engine Light came on, and the code indicated that the nearside cat was of “insufficient efficiency”. After trying several independents (including GF) and being told that the only solution was to fit the correct part (“after-market cats are low quality” etc), I decided that there was a possibility that the problem was the Lambda sensor. So, at great expense, (£130 each sensor) I had the pre-cat and post-cat sensor replaced and the code cleared. This seems to have cured the problem.

Hang on. So the non OEM part you fitted within miles of being fitted fails, and then you think its something else ? Seems to me like you've moved the baseline for the assessment and I presume its equally possible the non OEM cat has damaged the Lambda sensor ?

MainMan said:
This got me thinking about what had happened. I think the probable scenario is that the pre-cat nearside Lambda sensor became faulty very early in the life of the car. This caused the cat to overheat and break up. The CEL didn’t come on because the Merc cats are so over-engineered that they can clean up anything – for a time at least. Mercedes then replaced the cat without investigating the problem. They didn’t replace the sensor, so the new cat just broke up again in double quick time. When I then put a new (slightly lower efficiency) cat on the post-cat sensor rapidly began complaining because the cat didn’t have the capacity to clean the emissions up.

The moral of the story is that one should always check WHY the cat broke up. So why didn't Mercedes check this when the first one went. When the second one went in the same way why didn't they put 2 and 2 together? It seems obvious to me now, and I’m not a mechanic.

How do you know they didn't check it and its failed later ?

MainMan said:
Although I can’t actually prove that my theory is correct, I’m pretty sure that this is what happened. The circumstantial evidence is very strong. So I’m inclined to take further action and complain again to Mercedes. The only thing is, I’m wondering if I’ll end up even worse off than before. They could just reject my claim again and then revoke my Mobilo guarantee because I’ve fitted a non-OEM part. What d’you reckon? Call it quits, or push the claim further.

I don't mean to have a go at you - running cars is expensive, but this is no basis for a legal claim. You yourself doubt your own conclusions, you strike me as someone with a bit of mechanical knowledge, but I don't think you have all the knowledge (neither do I).

I can't understand why you think MB should pay up for you experimenting with the car and its exhaust. Who knows - perhaps they did check all the sensors before replacing it - and it failed as soon as it was driven off the forecourt.

My vote is you call it quits.
 
saorbust said:
My thoughts...

A little advice. When you don't understand something it's usually better to keep your thoughts to yourself. I've spent many hours researching this, so, like the Zulu priciple, I actually know more about it than most mechanics - not all the independents, but apparently more than most dealer mechanics.
 
MainMan said:
A little advice. When you don't understand something it's usually better to keep your thoughts to yourself. I've spent many hours researching this, so, like the Zulu priciple, I actually know more about it than most mechanics - not all the independents, but apparently more than most dealer mechanics.

If you don't want the thoughts of others then don't post on a board.
 
MainMan,

Did you keep the original Lambda probes that you believed were the cause of all your problems? Presumably they could be tested to prove whether they were faulty or not - i.e. hard evidence for a claim.
 
IMHO

I don't think the lambda probes were to blame. The car would be running very poorly for the cats to be damaged by such an excessively rich mixture. MB cats ARE however prone to premature failure. I would stick to that argument as there are quite a few cases for precedent.

Out of interest, you say you bought a factor cat at £460? As far as I'm aware a single cat from MB is £520 - of which you can get 10% off either through being an MBOC member or if your car over 3 years old on the MB 3-Plus scheme.
 
saorbust said:
If you don't want the thoughts of others then don't post on a board.

I’ve received some very helpful comments from people who’ve obviously gone to some trouble to read my ramblings and understand my logic – for which I’m grateful. Unfortunately, as is the way with the internet, there’s always a certain amount of pointless rubbish that gets posted. That’s just seems to be the price you have pay for the useful advice.

BTB - yes, I have kept the probes. It may be worth getting them tested. BTW Stats I'm dead sure it's the probe. Running rich destroys the cat, and it doesn't have to show up in the engine not running properly. I noticed my mpg improved after the sensor was replaced. Merc cats may be dodgy, but 2 in 24k miles ???? As for price the dealer was only interested in replacing both on the grounds that if one has gone the other won't be far behind. This is probably rubbish. The cats for the 320 are well over £1000 even with 10% discount. They then want an arm and a leg to fit them - independent charged £80.
 
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MainMan said:
I’ve received some very helpful comments from people who’ve obviously gone to some trouble to read my ramblings and understand my logic – for which I’m grateful. Unfortunately, as is the way with the internet, there’s always a certain amount of pointless rubbish that gets posted. That’s just seems to be the price you have pay for the useful advice.

Sorry but I don't agree with your logic thats why I posted. :eek: You may not like the fact that I'm not prepared to agree with you, and maybe you didn't like the way I replied. If thats the case sorry - I don't mean to offend. :crazy:

Put it this way - considering both sides of the story may help you to build a better case for compensation should you choose to do so.
 
One bit of info I gleaned while searching on cats is that the Mercedes OEM cats are made by Eberspaecher. These can be bought direct from Euro Parts and they're a fraction of the price Mercedes charge - if they have them in stock. That's what rubs salt into the wound. Not only do they refuse goodwill payments, but they're determined to make a killing on the replacement also. They could give you a 50% discount and still be in profit.
 
stats007 said:
MB cats ARE however prone to premature failure. I would stick to that argument as there are quite a few cases for precedent.

Both cats replaced under warranty after 14 months and 24,000 miles on our ML270 CDi. Based on what dealer said, it cost about £3k, which was more than the value of the car we sold to buy the ML!!
 
Bobby Dazzler said:
Both cats replaced under warranty after 14 months and 24,000 miles on our ML270 CDi.

I should check if they worked out what the cause of the premature failure was. Mercedes own literature says "Catalytic converters should last as long as the vehicle in which they are installed. If you're forced to change one ask yourself what went wrong with the original unit. A dead or lazy oxygen sensor is a common destroyer of catalytic converters". If they simply replaced the cat the chances are that the new one will fail quickly also - probably more quickly than the last. I wouldn't worry about Merc taking a £3k hit - the cats don't cost them anywhere near that, probably more like a couple of hundred.
 
Mainman - you're on a loser every time with the dealers, so my advice is to forget the whole thing! Even though you're fairly certain that the sensors caused the problem, you have no proof that they have been faulty all the while - dealer will simply claim that it/they failed when you fitted the last cat and that there were no fault codes showing when they last had the car. Don't waste time and energy on something you'll never 'win'.
 

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