The UK Politics & Brexit Thread

[renault12ts]

On the subject of Universities, why is there this assumption that to get a good job you need a degree, many hugely successful people have never been near one. Also many roles that now require this in my view, such as nursing would be better served using an apprentice based system. Nursing in my opinion requires first and foremost a kind and caring nature which can not be taught. I wonder how many excellent potential nurses have been lost to the NHS due to failing to meet the (in my opinion) lofty higher education standards.

As an engineer who has no degree I have worked with many graduate engineers, some very good, many I would not let replace a tap washer. I would go further and say there is no job that NEEDS a degree, any reasonably intelligent person with the right mind set can be taught a job by "doing it" alongside a suitably skilled supervisor.

Just my 2 pence worth.

Nurses need to know a great deal more nowadays than they did say 30 years ago when degrees were not necessary. They do today what junior doctors did 30 years ago...and still clean up the poo.

 

[Railwayman]

Nurses need to know a great deal more nowadays than they did say 30 years ago when degrees were not necessary. They do today what junior doctors did 30 years ago...and still clean up the poo.

I agree, just think that a degree is not the only option to train them.

 

[renault12ts]

I agree, just think that a degree is not the only option to train them.

It's not and they are auxillary nurses.

But proper nurses need to be highly trained today. Who else would you suggest doesn't need a degree?

 

[Railwayman]

It's not and they are auxillary nurses.

But proper nurses need to be highly trained today. Who else would you suggest doesn't need a degree?

So you think the only way to get highly trained is with a degree? In my experience when you leave the classroom and start the job is when you start to really learn.

Would suggest every job can be done without a degree, no need to name them.

 

[Benzowner]

It's not and they are auxillary nurses.

But proper nurses need to be highly trained today. Who else would you suggest doesn't need a degree?

Back in the day when I started work, I chose not to stay on at school for A levels but decided to work instead to earn some money. I did 4 days at work and one day at college for 5 years doing G* General engineering course, ONC and then HNC, surely Nursing could follow a similar method to both gain practical as well as theoretical skills.

 

[renault12ts]

Back in the day when I started work, I chose not to stay on at school for A levels but decided to work instead to earn some money. I did 4 days at work and one day at college for 5 years doing G* General engineering course, ONC and then HNC, surely Nursing could follow a similar method to both gain practical as well as theoretical skills.

Teachers too? How about ordinary doctors? You underestimate what nurses know these days and the responsibilities they take on.

 

[st13phil]

As an engineer who has no degree I have worked with many graduate engineers, some very good, many I would not let replace a tap washer. I would go further and say there is no job that NEEDS a degree, any reasonably intelligent person with the right mind set can be taught a job by "doing it" alongside a suitably skilled supervisor.

While I agree that many roles don't need a degree-level education to perform well in them, there are some that really do. I too have met graduate engineers who I wouldn't trust to tighten a bolt without it either coming loose or stripping a thread, but I've also met many more competent craftsmen who I wouldn't dream of trusting to design the turbine blade cooling system that the same graduate who can't tighten a bolt designed.

The title "Engineer" has strange connotations in Britain, most of which relate to the historic undervaluing of the profession by the land-owning gentry and the upper classes. The fact is that a Professional Engineer needs a similar level of education to operate effectively as would a top-flight surgeon or lawyer. That education is then developed with practical experience to create a competent practitioner, and the education and practical experience exposure both continue year in, year out, through their career. Every day is a school day.

The real issue is that UK degrees have become dumbed-down so as to increase the number of undergraduate places and then graduates. In tandem, proper Craft and Technician apprenticeships have all but disappeared. The net result is that we are creating large numbers of young people with "qualifications" of questionable worth, while comprehensively failing to provide the sort of technical grounding that is needed to contribute effectively to an increasingly technological future.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Would suggest every job can be done without a degree, no need to name them.

Really?

How about brain surgeons?

I agree, though, that every job on the railways can be done without a degree if my mate who is a senior guy with a rail franchise is correct.

 

[Railwayman]

Really?

How about brain surgeons?

I agree, though, that every job on the railways can be done without a degree if my mate who is a senior guy with a rail franchise is correct.

Oh you are naughty As for your mate, plenty of senior managers in the rail industry drafted in from Tesco's and the like who don't know there a**e from there elbow.

As for brain surgeons, they learn there skills in medical schools and then in hospitals being taught by professors of brain surgery if I'm not mistaken. No degrees in brain surgery as far as I'm a wear (could be wrong).

Not against degrees, simply saying they are not the be all that some make them to be.

 

[Dryce]

It's not and they are auxillary nurses.

But proper nurses need to be highly trained today. Who else would you suggest doesn't need a degree?

My observation is that nurses don't need degrees as such. It's a job that has discipline and professionalism - and a framework for learning a teaching with additional theory/study sessions as needed.

Plenty of accountants don't have degrees - they gain professional qualifications and do exams.

 

[Deleted member 6183]

Oh you are naughty As for your mate, plenty of senior managers in the rail industry drafted in from Tesco's and the like who don't know there a**e from there elbow.

As for brain surgeons, they learn there skills in medical schools and then in hospitals being taught by professors of brain surgery if I'm not mistaken. No degrees in brain surgery as far as I'm a wear (could be wrong).

Not against degrees, simply saying they are not the be all that some make them to be.

What kind of qualification do you think that people leaving medical schools have?

My mate's not a graduate but a former driver, doesn't have a high opinion of college boys.

 

[grober]

Nursing degree apprenticeship: factsheet - GOV.UK

 

[Deleted96908]

As for brain surgeons, they learn there skills in medical schools and then in hospitals being taught by professors of brain surgery if I'm not mistaken. No degrees in brain surgery as far as I'm a wear (could be wrong).

I think you are right. Following medical degree it's on the job training then competency tests. My future son in law tells me this lasts for ten! years although he is adding to this with an MSc in Neuroscience from Oxford. He told me, only today by coincidence, that this will offer him flexibility to go the science route rather than hands on should he want to. As an aside, I think British doctors are excellent and NICE is also viewed very highly around the world with its clinical expert systems and treatment pathways highly sought after overseas. I was told during business dealings with them last year that NICE are now selling this information on the open market so as to subsidise their ever reducing budget. Progress of sorts given they used to give it away.

Back to the broader point, although it might be true that folks could do any job without a qualification, I think we'd all agree that there are jobs that require proof of competency prior to being free to practice.

Government not being one of them apparently.

 

[markjay]

One of the reasons that we have so many pharmacies (sometimes two or three on the same street next to each other) and so many higher education institutes (164 according to one article), is that the government provides funding.

This has nothing to do with supply and demand or with the needs of the population... quite a few of these organisations exist primarily because they recieve public funding.

 

[Giantvanman]

The real issue is that UK degrees have become dumbed-down so as to increase the number of undergraduate places and then graduates. In tandem, proper Craft and Technician apprenticeships have all but disappeared. The net result is that we are creating large numbers of young people with "qualifications" of questionable worth, while comprehensively failing to provide the sort of technical grounding that is needed to contribute effectively to an increasingly technological future.

It could be argued that the general educational level has fallen resulting in employers raising their requirements to degree level simply to stand a better chance of hiring people with intelligence......

My wife hired staff for many years and the difficulty used to be choosing between all the suitable applicants. In recent years, the issue was sorting through to find suitable applicants, even from those with degrees.

 

[Dryce]

It could be argued that the general educational level has fallen resulting in employers raising their requirements to degree level simply to stand a better chance of hiring people with intelligence......

I think the general level of education has probably gone up.

But the grading of exams and degrees has meant that the qualifications have become flattened. So an A or a first or a 2.1 covers too wide a spectrum.

And the kids who would have left with Highers or A-Levels and got jobs straight after school now go on to do degrees. Those who would have maybe done a ONC or HNC or HND do degrees. So that has inflated the specifications of the jobs they end up in to require a degree.

And there are those who do a MSc simply to elevate themselves above a degree because a good degree is too prevalent.

 

[markjay]

The issues with inflation of higher-education degrees are as follows:

Graduates struggle to find jobs because (a) they are often considered over-qualified by potential employers, and (b) their salary expectations are higher than school leavers given that they have committed time and funds to acquiring their degrees.

When they do find jobs, they don't do as well as their colleagues who started working immediately after leaving school because (a) they are 3 or 4 years behind in terms of experience, and (b) they tend to be unhappy and frustrated at having to do a job that does not take into account the time and money they invested in achieving their degrees and that pays less than what they hoped they will be able to earn once they leave university.

The result is that when there's an inflation in college degrees, some graduates are unable to find work that meets their expectations, or find it difficult to hold-on to a job that does not, and so they... go back to uni and complete their second degree studies.

This simply costs more money to the taxpayer, reduces our productivity as a country, and ther's also further income loss to HMRC as they pay no or little PAYE tax.

Then, two years later they try and enter the labour market again.... this time with even higher expectations. Many end-up unemployed for life, others go back to uni and teach while completing their PhD studies. Which is one other reason why we have so many universities...

 

[st13phil]

^ That sums it up quite accurately in my view. Thanks, markjay.

 

[190]

The result is that when there's an inflation in college degrees, some graduates are unable to find work that meets their expectations, or find it difficult to hold-on to a job that does not, and so they... go back to uni and complete their second degree studies.

This simply costs more money to the taxpayer, reduces our productivity as a country, and ther's also further income loss to HMRC as they pay no or little PAYE tax.

Then, two years later they try and enter the labour market again.... this time with even higher expectations. Many end-up unemployed for life, others go back to uni and teach while completing their PhD studies. Which is one other reason why we have so many universities...

I agree with the basic premise that many will be dissatisfied with their first degree and the opportunities for employment it provides. Some will turn back to more education. My son did exactly this. Not quite the right choice of first degree meant poor employment prospects. It also meant 2 years to complete a masters and then another 3 or 4 years for a PhD. I don't think anyone could easily go through 9 years of further education without working for an income and making some contribution to society. He certainly did that. It was tough at times, but came right in the end with a good job and even better prospects for the future. There are jobs where you need a PhD. His partner has a PhD, my sister has a PhD, my brothers son and his partner have a PhD. They are all in jobs or aspiring to jobs that you wouldn't normally get without one.

 

[markjay]

I agree with the basic premise that many will be dissatisfied with their first degree and the opportunities for employment it provides. Some will turn back to more education. My son did exactly this. Not quite the right choice of first degree meant poor employment prospects. It also meant 2 years to complete a masters and then another 3 or 4 years for a PhD. I don't think anyone could easily go through 9 years of further education without working for an income and making some contribution to society. He certainly did that. It was tough at times, but came right in the end with a good job and even better prospects for the future. There are jobs where you need a PhD. His partner has a PhD, my sister has a PhD, my brothers son and his partner have a PhD. They are all in jobs or aspiring to jobs that you wouldn't normally get without one.

Your family members have done very well, no doubt due to a combination of skill and hard work, though I suspect that not everyone who followed a similar path was as fortunate.