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Going a bit Off Topic now guys...

Sooooooo.... back to Corbyn... who said yesterday that we can't blame Russia without sufficient proof, and today supported the expulsion of the Russian diplomats.... which is proof that if you speak emphatically in a soft voice and have a caring facial expression about you, you will manage to convince people even if what you say makes no sense at all. And this how Corbyn plans on becoming PM.
 
I'm not surprised that he is the hero to many Russians, as yet I haven't met one that won't defend him with vigour, although I've read of a few opposers, most of which look like the ones he's taken power and finance from.

I suspect 'opposers' don't do too well in Russia.

When you have an authoritarian government that can play with the rule of law people become quite circumspect about actively speaking out and opposing it.

National pride also makes its own momentum. Russia is a capable country with skills and resources that has underperformed both before and after the collapse of the Berlin wall. So national pride makes it acceptable to bully the Ukraine - grab the Crimea - intimidate neighbours rather than question why they are unable to function economically with strong Russian brands and products and services being sold to the rest of the world.
 
I'm not denying culpability on Russia's behalf, I am suggesting that there is a less obvious design of the UK in dealing with this.

Were it deemed to be no advantage we wouldn't have learned of Salisbury, 2 drunk Russians would have been taken away by ambulance.

The poisoning event took place on 4th March, did anyone else become aware earlier than 8 days later?
I suggest the UK were getting their ducks in a row.

I haven't heard yet what the cause of death is attributed to for Nikolai Klushkov on 13th March.
Russia were reporting it to be a strangulation before our media.
I would have expected the Home Office pathologists to work overtime to get to the cause, if needed.

We do and will find out what suits our state when it suits.
I feel that it's not as simple as them flippin Russians coming here to kill Russians (or ex Russians if you prefer).
 
I'm not denying culpability on Russia's behalf, I am suggesting that there is a less obvious design of the Uk in dealing with this.

Were it deemed to be no advantage we wouldn't have learned of Salisbury, 2 drunk Russians would have been taken away by ambulance.

The poisoning event took place on 4th March, did anyone else become aware earlier than 8 days later?
I suggest the UK were getting their ducks in a row.

If you are inclined to look for a conspiracy or complications you will always find them.

Alternatively you might consider that it does take a while to deal with a highly unusual and medically mysterious event - and rather than putting 'ducks in a row' this was a matter of getting the facts straight.

I haven't heard yet what the cause of death is attributed to for Nikolai Klushkov on 13th March.
russia were reporting it to be a hanging before our media.
I would have expected the Home Office pathologists to work overtime to get to the cause, if needed.

We do and will find out what suits our state when it suits.

You might also note that it is entirely normal for the police in UK to withold detailed information about a case.

Again - if you seek a conspiracy or complications you will find them easily.

I feel that it's not as simple as them flippin Russians coming here to kill Russians (or ex Russians if you prefer).

Well I'm waiting for the inevitable conclusions from some quarters - that the CIA did it - and its a setup to implicate the Russians - and that Trump ordered it to take the heat of himself and his relationship (or not) with the Russians. And then after a while we will have a revision to that which is that Trump did it at the request of the Russians ... who connived with the UK who were fed up of this guy living in Salisbury and wanted to take the political heat off the PM and make Mr Corbyn look bad. But then we'll find out that it was Donald Tusk who sent soem Polish agents over to make the Russians look bad and persuade the UK to up its defence spending. Except that M Macron was really behind it because he was trying to damage the reputation of Italian pizza restaurants in the UK to establish a new front in French cooking - and that this was a continuation of a culinary campaign that involved the demise of Jamie Oliver's restaurants.

So like yeah .... blame it on the French.
 
So like yeah .... blame it on the French.
Works for me ;)

We're living in strange times politically, both within and without the UK. One of the disruption techniques being used against western democracies is to create false rumours, innuendo and downright lies to discredit traditionally trusted sources of information in the eyes of the populace so that they are confused as to who to trust. And there's increasing evidence that lack of trust is building, with some predictable, and some less predictable, consequences.
 
Matt in the "Torygraph"
2018_1703-MATT-GALLERY-WEB-P1-large_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwfSVWeZ_vEN7c6bHu2jJnT8.png
 
If you think about this from another angle, the Russians using nerve agents is a calling card; why not just disappear these exiles instead of doing something that will be so open and public that the whole world will know about it?

Why? Because Putin and his acolytes want defectors (and the world) to know that they’ll hunt you down wherever you are...
 
With a general population barely above the breadline, Putin is using all of the resources and tactics he can to maintain control. This includes manipulation of the media, which effectively becomes a propaganda machine feeding the proletariat with messages that always reinforce the government position on every issue.

The West impose financial sanctions in response to Russian aggressive actions. The result is that the poor general population of Russia gets poorer and more resentful of the West. This just goes around in circles. Meanwhile Putin is so sure of his position that all credible opposition is removed at election time and election officials get busy stuffing ballot boxes with ballot papers to ensure 'the right' result. This is not going to change anytime soon, we are stuck with this regime for the foreseeable future.

For me the main issue about the use of nerve agent is the risk posed to others beyond the intended victims. There is no way to prevent Russian 'intelligence' forces from assassinating individuals they wish to target. That they apparently have chosen to use such an indiscriminate methodology is truly appalling.

They will never admit to this or that they have stocks of nerve agent or even that they developed nerve agent. It is at least highly unlikely that we will ever be able to absolutely prove that the use of nerve agent was officially sanctioned by Putin or anyone else.

As for Mr. Corbyn; does he get to sit on the Cobra committee or have access to all of the highly classified security information? That he has chosen to try scoring political points on this issue illustrates simultaneously how desperate and how unfit for office he really is.
 
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In the light of such a flagrant breach of our national sovereignty [ and make no mistake that's what it was whoever was responsible] perhaps those in favour of Brexit may wish to recalibrate the east-west political implications of such a move. A subject that rarely seems to get an airing in the discussion
Why Putin Is Bolstering Europe's Far-Right Populism

Sigh ........

I think it's become rather too easy for 'the establishment' to blame the Russians for everything.

This is a bit like the UK media before the general election that preceded the EUref ..... focusing on UKIP as if it only stripped voters from the Conservatives where as they were also strippig voters from Labour outside London. In that case UKIP was the right wing bogeyman - and by focusing on it they missed the reality which was the UK had polarised not on a simple left-right basis.

I think the US establishment has done the same with President Trump's election. Blame the Russians. Don't look at what's actually happening in your real domestic politics. Focus the blame elsewhere and ignore your own problems.

Yes .... opposing power blocs love to stir it up. This isn't new. A lot of us will have grown up with CND pushing for *unilateral* disarmament ..... now how convenient was that to the Soviets back in the day? So I have no doubt that the Russians will be happily stirring it up today.

But ... there are other fundamentals at work and pointing the finger at Putin is a cop-out for the UK and EU and US establishment that they use to let themselves conveniently off th hook.
 
" Its so obviously a joke to even contemplate the possibility that both British and American political systems have been compromised by covert external cyber manipulation." said "Terry from Dagenham" on Farcebook today "I blame the EU bureaucrats/ the politicians/the BBC/ the biased media/ the establishment------ its all Fake news Fake news.
Well in your case Terry it is---- for in reality your actually Uri the man with a 1,000 facebook aliases working out of the offices of the FSB in Moscow init!

Fake news and botnets: how Russia weaponised the web
Beware: this Russian cyber warfare threatens every democracy | Natalie Nougayrède
How Russia used social media to divide Americans
 

I have no doubt that there was some stirring up going on.

It becomes a simple explanation for those that don't like the underlying inconvenient truth to then point the finger at this one thing.

The Guardian is a useful example of what has happened. It represents an articulate voice in the established respectable left side of the UK - but has had (IMO) difficulty coming to terms with the fact that a significant portion of the population on that side of the poitical spectrum doesn't concur with its accepted wisdom.

I find the situation in the US interesting. Democratic Land of the Free. And yet it has poltical dynasties. The Kennedies. The Bushes. The Clintons. Is that bad? Well I think it's a sign of a very entrenched political establishment on both sides of their divide - both Republican and Democrat. And I don't think 'fake news' and Russian bots were needed to create the resentment against it - they may have fed it - but it was already simmering there to be fed.

And the EUref? Well the media were telling us at one point it was a generation divide. But hang on a minute - it was the 'Facebook generation' that they were suggesting had voted to remain while ........ it was those oldies whoi voted against.

So I think it's now convenient to exaggerate the impact of fake news and social media to explain stuff where you don't want to admit here are other uncomfortable fundamentals.
 
Funny how historical decisions may come to bite you later. General Patten and General MacArthur may have had the correct ideas with theRussians and North Koreans. But that could be another story :D
 
So what's up with Corbyn and the fresh antisemitism allegations? Fake news, or a very racist core?
 
What's happened to Nick Mercedes?
 
Evidently Jeremy Corbyn improved his "anti-semite" credentials by going to a dinner held by a left wing Jewish Group called Jewdas! Apparently not all Jews are the same. :confused: The strong UK Jewish Lobby in the labour party have always disliked Corbyns anti-Zionist stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but to dub it racist or anti-semite is a political misrepresentation stemming from internal party politics and beyond.
So is he anti-semitic/racist or anti-Zionist I would say the latter, but of course through certain eyes it amounts to the same thing. :dk:

Corbyn has no regrets over Jewish event
Jeremy Corbyn celebrated Passover with us. It’s a simple good news story | Jewdas
 
So what's up with Corbyn and the fresh antisemitism allegations? Fake news, or a very racist core?
He’s anti anything *Of The West*.

For all those pointing out that he was a vocal opponent with the Iraq war, it’s also worth remembering that, around 20 years ago, Nato took military action against the genocidal regime of Slobodan Milosevic in Serbia; Corbyn’s response was not just to oppose this campaign but to deny outright Milosevic’s war crimes.
 
Evidently Jeremy Corbyn improved his "anti-semite" credentials by going to a dinner held by a left wing Jewish Group called Jewdas! Apparently not all Jews are the same. :confused: The strong UK Jewish Lobby in the labour party have always disliked Corbyns anti-Zionist stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but to dub it racist or anti-semite is a political misrepresentation stemming from internal party politics and beyond.
So is he anti-semitic/racist or anti-Zionist I would say the latter, but of course through certain eyes it amounts to the same thing. :dk:

Corbyn has no regrets over Jewish event
Jeremy Corbyn celebrated Passover with us. It’s a simple good news story | Jewdas
I think there are two separare issues here.

The first is that Corbyn is anti-Zionist, but not anti-semite. And his anti-Zionist stance is not directly related to his views regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but more to do with his anti-West stance and historic support for geurilla and fringe groups in general.

The second is that he relies on the anti-semites vote to some extent, just as Trump relies on the white supremacists vote, so it is very risky for Corbyn to truly eradicate anti-semitism from Momentum and Labour. He will make some reconcilary speeches, but will be very careful not to go as far as to actually alienate his so-minded voters.
 
I think there are two separare issues here.

The first is that Corbyn is anti-Zionist, but not anti-semite. And his anti-Zionist stance is not directly related to his views regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but more to do with his anti-West stance and historic support for geurilla and fringe groups in general.

The second is that he relies on the anti-semites vote to some extent, just as Trump relies on the white supremacists vote, so it is very risky for Corbyn to truly eradicate anti-semitism from Momentum and Labour. He will make some reconcilary speeches, but will be very careful not to go as far as to actually alienate his so-minded voters.

I'm not at all sure that Corbyn is anti-Zionist.

Whilst he condemns the behaviour of the Israeli Government and opposes their programme of illegal settlement building on Palestinian land, I am not aware of any opposition on his behalf to the right of existence of Israel as a nation nor to the idea of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East.
 

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