Vito Dualiner - Goods vehicle speeding ticket - NO!

[Vclass]

Recently received a "Notice of Intended Prosecution" for travelling at 69mph on a dual carriageway part of the A303. I was pretty surprised to say the least, the offence was exceeding the limit for a goods vehicle. I browsed around the web a bit but didn't find a definitive answer as to whether a dualiner (or travelliner for that matter) is a car or a goods vehicle; it could be a car, but suggestion was that it also depends on use. Since I do not use the vehicle for trade - just like our old V-class - I thought it should be classed as a car for speeding.
So herewith my experience for anyone with the same problem:
After speaking to the "Safety Partnership" hotline, I wrote in explaining that the vehicle is not used for trade, and including photo's that showed the front and the numberplate, (that's all the speed camera guys see) the second window, and the second row of seats. Within a few days a letter of apology and withdrawel of NIP.
BTW I had previously checked on the Severn Bridge as I typically prefer to go through the (car-only) automatic lane. They told me their rule is simple, and enforced by side facing cameras. If the vehicle has a window behind the driver's and a second row of seats, it's classed as a car.

 

[BTB 500]

I browsed around the web a bit but didn't find a definitive answer as to whether a dualiner (or travelliner for that matter) is a car or a goods vehicle

It's neither. Legally a Vito Dualiner is classed as a "Dual Purpose Vehicle" (as long as you have at least of the two centre row seats fitted), which is then subject to car speed limits.

Several of my friends have had the same problem as you - in one case the local Police refused to back down and she ended up paying the fixed penalty!

Edit - I looked into this very carefully before ordering our Dualiner as the maximum unladen weight to be classed as a DPV is 2040 kg. The Long with the V6 engine (like ours) can exceed that depending on options fitted e.g. we couldn't have a second battery.

 

[Tiff]

Interesting! I drive a dualiner breakdown van, which has rear windows, which are covered by reflective stickers. I did some research when I started the job and found that as it has rear seats, its a dual purpose vehicle and has the same speed limits as a car. It would be great to have a definative answer "just in case". Any traffic officers on here?

 

[BTB 500]

It would be great to have a definative answer "just in case". Any traffic officers on here?

There are, maybe one of them will pitch in.

I still have a file of correspondence with Thames Valley police from 2007 when we ordered our Dualiner. They were very helpful, in complete contrast to the others I tried to get an answer from. They were:

MB UK
DVLA
Highways Agency

None of them were prepared to offer any advice whatsoever!

 

[flango]

When prosecuting for goods vehicle offences this used to be the guidelines they worked to.

Firstly they would determine if the vehicle was a car or a van they would take their lead on this from HMRC as they have the definitive list (attached for MB models)

Secondly if the payload of the vehicle is more than 1 tonne after the seat pack is added then it is classed as a goods vehicle.

Thirdly if the load area is larger than the passenger area then it is determined a goods vehicle

This works for a stop check but as regards a camera I presume they check the registration against the model and if any match the van criteria they may issue a ticket and then it's up to you to prove it isn't a goods vehicle as it doesn't fit the above criteria.

 

[BTB 500]

When prosecuting for goods vehicle offences this used to be the guidelines they worked to.

Firstly they would determine if the vehicle was a car or a van they would take their lead on this from HMRC as they have the definitive list (attached for MB models)

Secondly if the payload of the vehicle is more than 1 tonne after the seat pack is added then it is classed as a goods vehicle.

Thirdly if the load area is larger than the passenger area then it is determined a goods vehicle

This works for a stop check but as regards a camera I presume they check the registration against the model and if any match the van criteria they may issue a ticket and then it's up to you to prove it isn't a goods vehicle as it doesn't fit the above criteria.

The speed limits that apply are determined by whether it meets the definition of a Dual Purpose Vehicle or not:

"Dual-purpose vehicle" means a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2,040 kilograms, and which satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely:

a. the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;

b. the area to the rear of the driver's seat must -
i. be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for 2 or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests; attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and
ii. be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1,850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770, square centimetres at the rear; and

c. the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in sub-paragraph b(i) above or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rear most part of the steering wheel and the rear most part of the floor of the vehicle.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/dft-vehicle-definitions.pdf

Thames Valley police told me as far as proof is concerned

it is for the police to prove the offence and if you say it was a DPV they would have to prove otherwise

 

[Dieselman]

This works for a stop check but as regards a camera I presume they check the registration against the model and if any match the van criteria they may issue a ticket and then it's up to you to prove it isn't a goods vehicle as it doesn't fit the above criteria.

According to that, any Vito Dualiner without a high roof is a van.

Is there an MOT tax class difference between car and van designated vehicles? Class 4 or class 7?

 

[flango]

The speed limits that apply are determined by whether it meets the definition of a Dual Purpose Vehicle or not:



http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/dft-vehicle-definitions.pdf

Thames Valley police told me as far as proof is concerned

I don't think there is a dual purpose vehicle definition anymore is there , In the eyes of the law is it not either a car or a van seem to think they changed the MOT test to reflect this so some previous DPV's now need class 7 MOT's

Maybe it was just a proposal ? I can't remember but will find out unless someone who knows posts first

 

[flango]

Just spoke to a serving traffic officer

Dual Purpose Vehicle definition still exists and is covered under Road Vehicle (Construction and Use regulations) 1986 Part 1 regulation 3. It was just a proposal to abolish it and it never went through.

He also said that in relation to MB it is pretty clear what is a DPV as described under the above act and in BTB 500 post,

Hope that helps

 

[BTB 500]

Yup the other point that was made to me when I was investigating this originally was that it doesn't make any difference what the vehicle has on the V5 (my Dualiner originally said 'panel van', which is why I asked), how it's taxed, how it's insured (business or not), what the MOT class is, what toll rate it pays on bridges, etc.

Either it is physically a DPV (car speeds apply) or it isn't (van speeds apply). Specifically for the V6 639 Vito you need to be careful with the 2040 kg unladen weight as depending on spec. you could be over that. Whether they'd ever insist on you getting it weighed is another matter though ... suspect not.

Of course you can fold the seats flat in your Viano CDI (physically the same vehicle) and load it up with 800+ kg of paving slabs without any restrictions whatsoever. So the whole thing is a bit daft.

We drive on the continent - no idea whether the rules over there are the same or not. I didn't even try to find out - it was hard enough getting an answer in the UK

 

[ringway]

After owning a Sprinter, I was pleasantly surprised the first time I took my Vito through the M6 Toll. Charged only as a car.

 

[Headintheclouds]

I recently had a notice of intended prosecution for 70 on a dual carriageway for my Vito Dualiner extra long wheel base.
Pleased to say that I found enough useful info on the Gov.uk website to print out and send off with pictures of the car to get the intended prosecution withdrawn.
The main points are:
Must be less than 2040Kg unladen weight. I believe that this is kerb weight less 70Kg for driver, 7Kg for luggage and also less 90% of the weight of a full tank of either petrol or diesel - whichever it uses. These figures are from memory, so please don't take them as gospel.
Must have a rigid roof
Must have fitted rear seats - proper ones that can be used!
Side windows and rear window must be larger than stated minimum. Those on the Vito exceed these figures by a country mile.
Ratio of distance from rearmost part of steering wheel to back of rear seats when ready for use compared to rearmost part of steering wheel to rearmost part of load area be not less than 1/3. My XLWB Vito complies. This suggests all Dualiner lengths will.

 

[tjamesbo]

Thanks for that I worried about that when I got My Vito 120CDI compact which was originally a Dualiner I think( panel van on the V5 ) I have 2 seats up front then a camping / sink pod against the offside sliding door in the middle and a row of 3 seats in the far back all the interior is trimmed and I have middle windows in the sliding doors but no windows aft of the sliding door ( where my seats are ! ) leaving me with a small load area rear of that -just big enough for suitcases I did note that on the M6 Toll I'm classed as a car and since then havent worried about 70 in a "60" ( I was recovered recently on the M5 and they asked - before seeing the vehicle was it a camper so I appear to be a car,a dualliner, a panel van ,and a camper, take your pick.
I had presumed that you'll only get a ticket if you exceed the single set speed camera limit , as i dont think the camera can decide whether it should apply a 60 or 70 limit? unless some of the newer ones are that clever ?? Mobile camera vans might be a different matter
out of interest what caught you ? as most of what i have heard is of people being prosecuted for doing say 75 in a 70 then getting a ticket for being 15 over rather than 5 and hence a much larger fine than expected

 

[219]

Some devices use ANPR to check with the DVLA database and determine the taxation class of the vehicle then apply the appropriate limit .

The only one I’m not sure about would be where a car ( or other vehicle ) was towing a. Trailer ( which changes the limit ) which might be hidden from the camera .

 

[219]

Incidentally, yesterday I drove up the A9 , which from Dunblane to Inverness at least , is covered by average speed cameras , hence virtually everyone is very compliant with limits - except motorcycles , a few of which went by well into three figure speeds .

Given the numbers of motorcycle fatalities in recent weeks , in at least some of which disproportionate speed may have been a factor , why on earth do these cameras look at front number plates when they would work just as well looking at rear number plates , thus bringing motorcycles into the net too .

It wouldn’t prevent people , including motorcycles, from making progress, since we can all use a short burst of speed to get past a slow moving HGV or caravan , then drop back below the average , but it would stop these ‘ton up’ merchants , who can arrive so quickly as to take other road users by surprise and thus bring about their own demise .
I’m a poet and I don’t know it .

 

[219]

Secondly if the payload of the vehicle is more than 1 tonne after the seat pack is added then it is classed as a goods vehicle.

So an E Class estate with a load capacity of 2100Kg is a goods vehicle ?

 

[Headintheclouds]

It was a manned speed trap. I would be interested to know if unmanned cameras use ANPR. I guess it's only a matter of time.

 

[Headintheclouds]

So an E Class estate with a load capacity of 2100Kg is a goods vehicle ?

I don't think so. It's a car, not a van. Most of it is pretty well defined - car, car derived van, van, lorry...

The grey area is smaller vans that are not car derived. Either dual purpose vehicle or not. The definition is reasonably clear but is not well published or well known

 

[BTB 500]

Thanks for that I worried about that when I got My Vito 120CDI compact which was originally a Dualiner I think( panel van on the V5 ) I have 2 seats up front then a camping / sink pod against the offside sliding door in the middle and a row of 3 seats in the far back all the interior is trimmed and I have middle windows in the sliding doors but no windows aft of the sliding door ( where my seats are ! ) leaving me with a small load area rear of that -just big enough for suitcases I did note that on the M6 Toll I'm classed as a car and since then havent worried about 70 in a "60" ( I was recovered recently on the M5 and they asked - before seeing the vehicle was it a camper so I appear to be a car,a dualliner, a panel van ,and a camper, take your pick.

I think you need to be careful from the speed limits POV. Your vehicle isn't a car, presumably isn't registered as a motor caravan on the V5 (this has a list of requirements including a bed at least 6' long, water tank, dining table, lockers, etc.), and probably doesn't meet the criteria to be treated as a Dual Purpose Vehicle (because the side windows aren't where the seats are). In which case normal van speed limits would apply by default. It doesn't matter what tolls you pay btw - this is completely separate. Incidentally, make sure it has the correct number of seats on the V5.

 

[Headintheclouds]

So an E Class estate with a load capacity of 2100Kg is a goods vehicle ?

I don't think load capacity is a factor. I believe it is kerb weight which isn't always easy to find. Unladen weight less fuel & 70Kg driver etc. Sorry to nitpick, but I used this thread to fact find for my defence, so I think it's important to keep it as accurate as possible.