Why you shouldn't fit aftermarket HID kits

[Vitocliff]

I think we need to defrentiate between our views of certain laws, and the question of whether they should be obeyed.

Going back to yet another good old 'bring out the popcorn' thread, I don't think that the legislation against private ownership of handguns makes any sense at all, and I have no doubt that if I did own a handgun it will be 100% safe and I would not be putting anyone at risk, and yet I have no intention whatsoever of obtaining an illegal handgun simply based on the premise that the legislation banning it is rubbish.

So whatever the argument in favour of fitting aftermarket HID may be... don't. It's wrong to fit them because it is illegal, regardless of the fact that some bloke on the Internet thinks it is OK.

 

[Vitocliff]

You may well find that with the fitting of xenon/hid/ gas discharge or whatever you want to call them, requires the fitment of a headlamp wash system. This is due to the lack of heat generated by the light source. With ordinary halogen type lamps there is a lot of heat created which is thought to be sufficient to keep the lens clean ! Just thought I might add something to the thread. See EU type approval regs. ! Cliff

 

[rf065]

You may well find that with the fitting of xenon/hid/ gas discharge or whatever you want to call them, requires the fitment of a headlamp wash system. This is due to the lack of heat generated by the light source. With ordinary halogen type lamps there is a lot of heat created which is thought to be sufficient to keep the lens clean ! Just thought I might add something to the thread. See EU type approval regs. ! Cliff

I don't think heat or the lack of it has any bearing on whether a headlamp wash is needed. In fact, lower powered HID's do not require headlamp washers at all.

Russ

 

[Vitocliff]

Thanks, maybe my info is out of date ! I'll not be fitting any modified lamps myself, just trying to help. Cliff

 

[markjay]

This is from Osram, the bulb manufacturer....:

A clean beam: The purpose of the headlamp washer system - OSRAM Carlight Blog

'......headlamps do need one if their light sources emit more than 2000 lumens. Indeed, this is required for ECE approval. (Under the DOT regulations in North America headlamp washers are not mandatory at all.) These do not refer specifically to xenon, but as no approved halogen lamp exceeds this threshold value and as this also is the case with most LED systems, only xenon headlamps are, in fact, affected in practice. They emit around 3000 lumens.... The main reason for the requirement is that dirt can impair the optical features of the headlamp and cause glare. Incidentally, headlamps which are only slightly soiled cause a stronger glare, and of course the brighter the headlamp, the stronger the glare.'

 

[markjay]

Soooo.... it seems the ECE approval regulations require that headlamps (dipped beam) emitting more than 2,000 Lumens - regardless of bulb type - are equipped with washers.

Now the theoretical question is whether retrofits need to meet ECE approval? Or does it only apply to factory-fitted equipment?

I say 'theoretical' because I can't see how this can possibly be enforced - MOT testing centres are neither required nor equipped to check retrofits against ECE approval, and the police or DVSA will not be able to deal with this at the roadside either.

The only practical negative implication as I see it of non-ECE approved retrofits is that it provides insurers with a get-out-of-jail card in case of a significant claim - if the claim is sizeable enough their investigators will go over the car and unearth anything and everything that can be used to avoid the large pay-out.

 

[Yugguy]

The mot wording is vague. It states that levelling and washing system must be working, WHERE FITTED.

Not all cars with factory fit hid had both, certain Renaults for example.

 

[whitenemesis]

Soooo.... it seems the ECE approval regulations require that headlamps (dipped beam) emitting more than 2,000 Lumens - regardless of bulb type - are equipped with washers.

Now the theoretical question is whether retrofits need to meet ECE approval? Or does it only apply to factory-fitted equipment?

I say 'theoretical' because I can't see how this can possibly be enforced - MOT testing centres are neither required nor equipped to check retrofits against ECE approval, and the police or DVSA will not be able to deal with this at the roadside either.

The only practical negative implication as I see it of non-ECE approved retrofits is that it provides insurers with a get-out-of-jail card in case of a significant claim - if the claim is sizeable enough their investigators will go over the car and unearth anything and everything that can be used to avoid the large pay-out.

Fitting any thing that is not type approved will render the car illegal on the road and in that instance, uninsured.

 

[whitenemesis]

The mot wording is vague. It states that levelling and washing system must be working, WHERE FITTED.

Not all cars with factory fit hid had both, certain Renaults for example.

Exactly this, IF fitted they must work. There is no requirement for the tester to check if they should be fitted.

That said in all the MoTs carried out by my dealership they never once tested the headlamp washers!

 

[markjay]

The mot wording is vague. It states that levelling and washing system must be working, WHERE FITTED.

Not all cars with factory fit hid had both, certain Renaults for example.

MOT will not be looking to check if there are any retrofits that do not meet ECE approval.....

So as far as I can see the answer is:

Retrofitting HIDs that emit more than 3,000 Lumens without a headlamp washer system will render the car illegal, unroadworthy, and uninsured.

Said that.... the chances of anyone ever finding out are very very low.

 

[markjay]

Interestingly.... from Googling, it seems that there's no legal upper limit for Lumens (or Wattage) for road cars.

The lights 'must not dazzle or inconvenience' other road users, but that's about it.

And it seems that the reason that 80W or 100W are usually advertised as 'for off-road use only', is not due to their light output as such, but because they have no E markings... and they have no E markings because a standard road car will need to have its wires (and fuses, and relay...) modified in order to be able to safely cope with running 80W or 100W through en electrical system that was designed for 55W.

This is also why the likes of Osram Night Breakers and Philips xTreme are road legal... because they produce more Lumens from the same 55W and therefore have the E mark and are 'safe' to use in road cars.

 

[Vitocliff]

Can of worms ? Just to throw something else into the arena, all parts of a vehicle are to be type approved. If I fit an HID system into my vehicle's headlamps, those headlamps will no longer comply with their type approval due to a different light source being used. Probably, the light comes from a slightly different position ? Cliff.

 

[Wolfie1]

The 1 thing i think we can all agree on is all rules and regulations are made up useless ****s that make up more absurd regulations to keep themselves in their overpaid jobs

 

[renault12ts]

The 1 thing i think we can all agree on is all rules and regulations are made up useless ****s that make up more absurd regulations to keep themselves in their overpaid jobs

That's just silly.

That is how you feel. But take a minute and imagine a world where there was a free for all...done that? Silly?

 

[Deleted member 6183]

 

[horatio]

I can't see the problem in retro-fitting a good quality 35w kit into a projector headlight as long as they are adjusted properly. I did this on an E39 I used to own which had woeful standard lights. It should be possible to get a conversion officially tested/adjusted for a legality certificate which can be given to the insurance co.

The problem is morons sticking them into reflector headlights (I know you can get those R bulbs but I'm not convinced).

 

[markjay]

I can't see the problem in retro-fitting a good quality 35w kit into a projector headlight as long as they are adjusted properly. I did this on an E39 I used to own which had woeful standard lights. It should be possible to get a conversion officially tested/adjusted for a legality certificate which can be given to the insurance co.

The problem is morons sticking them into reflector headlights (I know you can get those R bulbs but I'm not convinced).

The practical issue is with the way the beam is spread, the reflector is designed to match the light source and patern. So it is not just a simple matter of being able to adjust the beam height as tested during MOT. In order for the light pattern to be 100% right you will need to change the entire headlamp. Perhaps there's a reflector kit that transforms the light pattern of a Halogen headlamp to that of HID without having to replace the entire headlamp, I do not know.

The formal issue is that none of these make-shift convertions will have the E mark, which means that strictly speaking they are only legal for off-road use (same as LED bulbs and 100W Halogen bulbs etc etc).

It is very unlikely that a kit manufacturer will go into the expense and trouble of having their product certified. But I am happy to be proven wrong - i.e. if anyone knows about a LED or HID converstion kit which is certified with the R mark.

As things stand, anything fitted to the car that isn't legal for road use will never get approval from insurers. The owner may declare the mod, but if it is later found out that it was illegal, the insurer is likely to try and void the policy.

Said that.... the likelihood of getting in trouble due to a headlamp converstion kit is quite low, which is why these conversations are common. Not condoning it, just making an impartial observation.

But the bottom line is that if you want to retrofit HIDs then the only way for it to be 100% legit is if you retrofit the original HID system (including new headlamps and headlamp washers etc). This is my understanding anyway.

 

[stephenmercedes]

I know it's an old thread, but I'm a newcomer! I fitted HID 35w bulbs to my GT4 in 2007, passed every MOT but the law was changed after a few years stating that HID bulbs needed a headlamp washer system. HIDs gave them selves away in that they needed 3 to 4 seconds to warm up, so MOT center knew straight away, so simply swapped the bulbs out for MOT! But, about 5 years ago, I got some LED bulbs for the car, as they are instant on, the MOT center never commented once on them, and they always passed their beam pattern test. Still in the car now, and I wouldn't drive without then as they are so much better than that Victorian filament technology...

 

[Codger49]

I do wonder though, why Philips can't get their Ultinon H4 and H7 LED bulbs ECE certified for legal road use?

 

[markjay]

I do wonder though, why Philips can't get their Ultinon H4 and H7 LED bulbs ECE certified for legal road use?

We do have new cars that come with factory-fitted LED dipped and main beam. So I am speculating that there's an issue in getting the ECE mark for a LED bulb in isolation, i.e. as retrofit to replace existing Halogen bulbs?

The possible issues are:

(a) The old issue of wrong light pattern due to the Halogen headlamp's reflector and lens not designed for HID or LED, though this could have potentially been resolved by replacing the entire headlamp rather than just the bulb?

(b) Cars with factory-fitted LED lights will typically also have some sort of electronic brain to manage the light output, possibly LED can't really be reined-in properly and be safe from dazzling other road users without it?

Either way, I think it's obvious that there's an issue with simply replacing Halogen bulbs with LED, most probably safety-related, otherwise someone would come-up with the ECE certification by now, there's clearly a market for it if it became legal.