£25 congestion charge is it a done deal?

[Dieselman]

They will still have a CO2 rating.

The £ will be flying out of the owners wallets faster than the fuel from the tank....

 

[hawk20]

The end is to cut emisisons but more importantly to reduce congestion in one of the World s most important business centres. The means will almost invariably fall on the biggest polluters. ... but no matter what the justification it will ineveitably almost always fall on the same people and big cars.

That would be totally ineffective. Rich people can afford to swap in their band G car for a brand new BMW X5 which from October is in band F. There will be no effect on congestion by rich people.

Poorer people will bear the brunt of congestion charging. The lower the income the more likely people are to be priced off the road by this and by govt plans for road tolls. Odd to see a Labour govt pricing the working class off the roads so as to make more room for middle and upper class people to carry on just as before.

 

[BonzoDog]

Inherited? You must be aboriginal then? If I can be permitted to make the same sorts of assumptions you are making.

The barbie comment was meant as a joke. Maybe I should have put a funny face next to it so you would understand.............oh I did! And regarding your arguments, we are already paying for being fuel consumers, 95p a litre, plus, as Karl W has indicated, road tax according to emissions.

And no, I don't buy carbon credits. Like over 50% of the UK populace, I believe global warming is a natural phenomenon, not something that has been caused by man, or even to which man is a major contributor. It is a convenient peg for politicians to hang taxes on which of course it is politically incorrect to dispute.

I think Australia faces some differnet environemntal problems, drought for example but it is giving these topics a good airing and, from my understanding, there is more buy-in from the populace as to what should be done.

 

[hawk20]

Nothing Australia does will make a blind bit of difference. The population is far too small to matter. Chuck another prawn on the barbie.

And nothing Britain does will matter either. We are 1% of the world population and long run will not be more than, say, 2% of the problem -if that. Cut our emissions by 30% and you have cut the long term world problem to 99.4% of its size. Oh goody.

All that really matters is what China, the USA, India, Europe as a whole, and all the emerging nations do.

In fact, if we let world population go on doubling evry 60 years, it won't matter what anyone does.

 

[BTB 500]

Rich people can afford to swap in their band G car for a brand new BMW X5 which from October is in band F.

I doubt rich people would be bothered by £25 a day ... £5k - £6k a year is chickenfeed to them.

 

[hawk20]

I doubt rich people would be bothered by £25 a day ... £5k - £6k a year is chickenfeed to them.

Yes depends on how rich we mean by rich. The very rich are so few in number they don't really matter. When I last looked only 0.4% of the working population earned over £100k p.a.

Even earning £100k p.a. you would care about £5300 per year if you lived in the zone. That is over 5% of your before tax income. And remember this charge is paid out of after tax income so to pay £25 per day you need to earn nearly £42 to pay it. To pay the £5300 will take £8,833 of pre tax earnings THAT is nearly 9% of total income for a person on £100k. Think what it does to those who are merely comfortably off.

I know if I lived in London I would definitely get rid of any band G cars I owned.

 

[Dieselman]

I know if I lived in London I would definitely get rid of any band G cars I owned.

And here endeth the lesson..

This is the whole point of the exercises, to get people to run lower emission cars...
It isn't about taking revenue, otherwise why would low emission cars be allowed into the zone for free..

 

[hawk20]

And here endeth the lesson..

This is the whole point of the exercises, to get people to run lower emission cars...
It isn't about taking revenue, otherwise why would low emission cars be allowed into the zone for free..

I largely agree with that. I think he may like the revenue but spiteful knocking of the rich (which Red Ken loves to do) and reducing emissions are the goal. And I have argued from the beginning that many people are being delusional about this. It is the beginning of the end for big petrol engined cars unless some new technology rescues them. Luckily the S class 320cdi is in band F. Safe for now and OK so far, as the man said passing the 34th floor after jumping off a 100 storey building.

 

[Dieselman]

Maybe we all need to take heed.

I like the 'jumper' metaphore....

 

[hawk20]

Maybe we all need to take heed.

Yes. Sadly: ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

 

[hawk20]

Here's an odd one. If I sell my S320cdi in which I do at least 15k miles a year, and buy an ML 280cdi and a Smart car. And do 5k in the Smart car at 60 mpg and 10k in the ML at 30 mpg, I will use less fuel and do less emissions than if I keep the band F car I now have (35 mpg -all govt combined figures). But I will pay more tax. VED nationally,and the congestion charge in London if I lived there.

We need to look at the whole useage. And planes.

 

[fuzzer]

That would be totally ineffective. Rich people can afford to swap in their band G car for a brand new BMW X5 which from October is in band F. There will be no effect on congestion by rich people.

Great minds think alike eh

 

[Shude]

We need to look at the whole useage. And planes.

Absolutely! I'm sure planes go through London all the time and not a penny of congestion charge paid!

 

[hawk20]

Great minds think alike eh

Well I have had a ML 420cdi for a week and I do like the whole experience. Great comfort. High driving position. great for getting in and out without twisting your back etc. And an impression of loads of space both in the cabin and in the vast storage area. Tried the X5 too and have to say both are impressive (did I say that?). The latest diesels are so smooth and so quiet: amazing.

Personally I wouldn't want the consumption of a 4.2 litre but the power ........

 

[Dieselman]

We need to look at the whole useage. And planes.

I agree about the planes part but the usage part is irrelevant, it's how much pollution per mile. If you didn't use the ML at all then the emissions would be much less overall.
People need to stop thinking of any personal quota and just get to a minimum situation.

 

[Dieselman]

Great minds think alike eh

This will affect the wealthy because the residual values on band G cars will plummet and as the thresholds tighten further so will other high ranking groupage cars.
The £400 per year tax will cause £0000's to be knocked off the residuals.

 

[hawk20]

Absolutely! I'm sure planes go through London all the time and not a penny of congestion charge paid!

If you lived in a London suburb as I did I think you would care more about the noise pollution from planes (every two or three minutes in places). AND if the goal is to control emissions -presumably in a Quixotic attempt to save the planet- then airplane emissions matter just as much as car emissions (gram for gram).

 

[BTB 500]

Yes depends on how rich we mean by rich. The very rich are so few in number they don't really matter. When I last looked only 0.4% of the working population earned over £100k p.a.

Even earning £100k p.a. you would care about £5300 per year if you lived in the zone. That is over 5% of your before tax income. And remember this charge is paid out of after tax income so to pay £25 per day you need to earn nearly £42 to pay it. To pay the £5300 will take £8,833 of pre tax earnings THAT is nearly 9% of total income for a person on £100k. Think what it does to those who are merely comfortably off.

I know if I lived in London I would definitely get rid of any band G cars I owned.

All true, but buying a new X5 just to avoid band G would surely not be cost-effective (you'd still be paying something per day for band F). And in 12 months time they might change the threshold to band F anyway.

 

[hawk20]

All true, but buying a new X5 just to avoid band G would surely not be cost-effective (you'd still be paying something per day for band F). And in 12 months time they might change the threshold to band F anyway.

I think you may have missed the point. The argument here seems to be that rich people won't care about the charge and will go on as before. So no effect on congestion or emissions.

Or, as I say, some of them will change to cars in lower tax bands but go on using their cars. So no effect on congestion, but somewhat lower emisions.

Either way, the only way that congestion will be cut is by pricing lower income people off the road (as the cost hurts them more), which seems an odd target for a Socialist to choose.

 

[Dieselman]

- then airplane emissions matter just as much as car emissions (gram for gram).

A lot more actually. In the sky the CO2 has three times the effect it has at ground level.
The simple answer would be o tax airline fuel but that can't be done due to an international agreement drawn up by the USA some years ago.

Now the TFL conjestion charge is £8 for travelling within a 10 mile radius so maybe a tax of £8 for every 10 miles on a plane would do it.....