13 year old robber beaten up ........

[Darrell]

Unpopular opinion, it would seem, but personally I think that at 13, he will be the byproduct of his environment, imitating what he saw older kids and grown-ups around him do, perhaps even in his own home.

Probably very true but it doesn’t stop him robbing innocent people of their belongings does it.
People fight back as a last resort.

 

[Darrell]

I would feel like beating the proverbial out of the kid but that is why we have police and the courts as the victims of crime are very seldom objective enough to administer justice.

So what will the police and the courts do in this particular case??

 

[Fununcle]

So what will the police and the courts do in this particular case??

I don't know I am neither a lawyer nor a copper.

 

[Steveml63]

Hi,
The little scrote got what he deserved!
I hate the hand wringing and sympathy from the social workers who are always trying to justify why a 13 year old would be carrying a knife and violently rob people!
Save the sympathy for the law abiding victims!
Unfortunately - history shows that he is already on his way to a life of violent crime and he will either stab somebody or get stabbed himself in the coming years.
Maybe the beating he got will knock some sense into him - but I seriously doubt it.
Until the courts have the power to impose sentences that have the power to frighten these kids away from a life of crime - then they will continue to carry on like this.
These kids just don’t see a downside to what they are doing - as they don’t really care if they get caught.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Wagon]

Unpopular opinion, it would seem, but personally I think that at 13, he will be the byproduct of his environment, imitating what he saw older kids and grown-ups around him do, perhaps even in his own home.

Exactly this , I know the area very well as I lived there for 10 odd years .

 

[kam09]

Let's hope it's a deterrant for the 'teenager' going forward.. he's not a child imo so the beating was deserved if he was going round robbing other kids with a knife.. the criminal justice system in this country is a complete joke and the way the authorities have clamped down on parents disciplining their own children has created today's youth being out of control.. also a major point is that social media along with tech has and will destroy future generations in many different ways..

 

[markjay]

My view is that the main cause of the prevalence of street crime is the combination of local social norms and perception of risk.

In an environment where people around you get mugged daily and don't even bother to report it to the police, or where people carry knives and deal in drugs and rarely get caught, would-be criminals feel that its both 'OK' and safe to do so.

How many people on this forum admit to speeding? It isn't too badly frowned-upon by other fotum members (i.e. it's a socislly accepted/tolerated behaviour), and if they know where there's no cameras then they know they won't be caught (perception of the risk as low).

Obviously violent crime and speeding are two very different thing, but the same underlying principles apply.

Demanding harsher punishment by the justice system is pointless - if people don't believe they'll get caught in the first place, the severity of the punishment is irrelevant for them (or rather, has lesser relevance).

What is needed is many more detectives in CID. If nearly all low-level crime was solved, then there would be much less of it to begin with (even if the sentences delivered are relatively moderate). The best deterrent is changing the perception of risk from low to high.

But this requires massive investment from the police. And sadly we prefer to tackle serious criminals once they have graduated from the Crime Academy that they grown-up in, rather than deal with them at the much earlier stage when they mug iPhones from other kids, and break into cars, and sell drugs to their friends - these are considered petty crimes so we largely ignore them. But we are in fact ignoring an active and very efficient incubator.

As for local social norms and what is considered socially acceptable behaviour in the community... just look at the case of the 18 years old drug dealer who was doing his rounds delivering cannabis to his 'clients' riding a stolen and cloned bike for which he had no driving license, then crashed and died while trying to flee from an unmarked police car that was following him.

The local community in his home borough of Islington protested and demonstrated insisting that the police officers following him stand trail for manslaughter.

 

[Deleted member 150136]

As for local social norms and what is considered socially acceptable behaviour in the community... just look at the case of the 18 years old drug dealer who was doing his rounds delivering cannabis to his 'clients' riding a stolen and cloned bike for which he had no driving license, then crashed and died while trying to flee from an unmarked police car that was following him.

The local community in his home borough of Islington protested and demonstrated insisting that the police officers following him stand trail for manslaughter.

My lifelong friend was driving that police car.
That night pretty much ruined his life and career

 

[markjay]

My lifelong friend was driving that police car.
That night pretty much ruined his life and career

Sorry to hear this.

Here are some articles regarding this case:

TV star and AFC fans join Henry Hicks protest as 5,000 march on police station

Scooter rider Henry Hicks, 18, died in a crash in December as police pursued him and Birds of a Feather star Linda Robson was among those taking aprt in the protest

www.mirror.co.uk

Four police cars turned up at Henry Hicks mural painting

Four police vehicles and at least six officers turned up in Holloway on Good Friday to quiz the grieving sister of Henry Hicks over the painting of…

www.islingtongazette.co.uk

Teenager who died in police chase was drug dealer, inquest hears

North London coroner hears Henry Hicks was carrying cannabis when he died in scooter crash after police car pursuit

www.theguardian.com

Moped rider died trying to evade police pursuit, inquest rules

A north London teenager who died in a moped crash was trying to evade police as they pursued him in unmarked cars, an inquest jury ruled today.

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Deleted member 150136]

Sorry to hear this.

Thanks.
It wasn't a good time for him, I won't go into details, but he had to disappear from every walk of life for about 3 years.....and nothing has been the same since....big long sad story with a lot more than has been talked about in the media.
Not my place to go into details here

 

[E55BOF]

I have great sympathy for him, but for Henry Hicks? None whatsoever; he didn't deserve to die for what he was doing, but he made his choices and suffered the consequences. The only good things that came out of the incident are that he personally won't do it again, and that some of his equally lawless mates might think twice about doing the same in the future.

 

[chic0821]

" As I said, two wrongs don't make a right. And the young man accepts that he's made a wrong decision by holding a knife and robbing people"
The wrong decision was getting caught. Deserves all he got. If it goes to court, slap on the wrist, poor wee soul, his solicitor will blame everyone but his client & he will be claiming from the criminal injury board & will no doubt get thousands. Who said crime does not pay.

 

[Deleted member 150136]

What those links don't say(but they do if you actually read them as fact) was that he wasn't actually being pursued when he crashed.
They had been following him, but he had lost/evaded the police at the time of the crash.

Loads of other stuff that I won't be putting on the Internet!!

 

[markjay]

I have great sympathy for him, but for Henry Hicks? None whatsoever; he didn't deserve to die for what he was doing, but he made his choices and suffered the consequences. The only good things that came out of the incident are that he personally won't do it again, and that some of his equally lawless mates might think twice about doing the same in the future.

The issue I was highlighting is that apparently in some parts of Islington, selling cannabis on a stolen bike is socially acceptable, just look how the 'community' (aided by 'celebrities') were up in arms over this.

My point is that both Henry Hicks and the 13 years old boy are the by-products of a society that sees nothing wrong with petty crime (unless they happen to become victims of it, of course). Children are then raised in this environment, and they grow-up knowing no better.

The cases of the Henry Hicks and the 13 years old boy are different though, because the death of the former was wrongly attributed to the behaviour of the police offices (they were finally cleared after several years on inquiries, hearings, and appeals), while the latter is a simple case of unjustified vigilantly justice.

I hope that those who beat-up the 13 years old boy are prosecuted for assaulting a minor. If they complain about their kids being mugged, they should ask themselves when did they last willingly assist their local police? Reported people who they knew to carry knives? Or sell drugs? If you don't assist the police in your area, then live with the criminality, it's your choice, but replacing them with rough justice will land you in prison.

 

[markjay]

What those links don't say(but they do if you actually read them as fact) was that he wasn't actually being pursued when he crashed.
They had been following him, but he had lost/evaded the police at the time of the crash.

Loads of other stuff that I won't be putting on the Internet!!

Actually this is a case I have been following over the years (long story).

The issue was that the officers driving the two unmarked cars that were following Henry Hicks, did not have the qualifications and training for 'pursuit' driving, but only to 'follow'. Which is what they claimed they were doing in the minutes leading up to the fatal crash.

However, they accepted that Henry Hicks became aware that he was being followed, and the prosecution claimed that when a suspect knows he is being followed and tries to flee, and the police keep following him in spite of knowing that they were spotted and that the suspect is trying to evade them, then this automatically become a 'pursuit'. So strictly speaking, the police offices should have stopped following the suspect as soon as they realised that the suspect became aware of their presence and was taking evasive action, because they had no qualifications or training for 'pursuit' (they did stop following him, but only after a while). And a judge upheld this, although it was overturned on appeal.

The relevance to this thread is that initially the police announced that no action will be taken against the officers, however this initial decision was overturned after it spiked large protests by the 'community' in Islington. His sister then went-on to create a 'shrine' for him opposite their house, using the wall of a power sub-station. The police were unable to prevent it because the family managed to secure permission from the local energy suppliers who owns the substation.

When the local community are effectively fighting the police... what chances do the police have? The result is more feral youth, and then more rough justice required to 'control' them. It's a vicious circle.

 

[DSM10000]

From my perspective, the thread shows quite clearly that the majority of us have little faith in the Criminal Justice System to have the resources or in many cases, the will to deal with such incidents or in the ability of the Social Services to provide whatever support such children and their families need.

Every time such events are reported in the news a constant blame culture is associated with them, the lack of parental responsibility, the lack of local resources and local poverty, the lack of Police on the ground etc followed by calls for more investment in local communities. Of course, there is never one simple answer, no panacea but you have to start at the ground level because children are not born with these behaviours and if they are not taught and guided by parents, family, school etc to have a sense of self, a sense of society and of those values that make society work then aberrant behaviours are learnt and become ingrained.

I can however well understand the frustration amongst those that were involved in the attack on this boy although I cannot condone it. Restrain him until the Police can deal with him certainly but mob " justice" is as bad for society as the criminal behaviour of the 13-year-old if not worse when perpetrated by a number of adults who really should know better to control their understandable anger and frustration.

One can only hope this experience has brought home to the boy involved that there are serious consequences to his actions and if not then I hope the Justice system will come down increasingly harder on such offenders.

 

[Petrol Pete]

A 13 year old wearing expensive trainers riding an expensive electric scooter (illegally) . His family must be fairly well off to be able to afford those things. It's a bit blurry but that knife might be a Nesmuk, his mom will be missing that from the knife block for sure.

Put it this way . The little scroat should thank whichever god he believes in that he lives in the UK. in many countries around the world his five minutes of fame video would have had a very different ending.

My guess at his legal punishment ? ...None.

 

[m80]

that is why we have police and the courts

More so in some parts of the UK than others. And then we learn of the lack of punishments that have cost the tax payer £,000's to not administer.

prevalence of street crime is the combination of local social norms and perception of risk

You have recognised that these thugs feel they are justified by the unlawful events being normalised. Low risk of getting caught, the effect if caught is more often just annoying inconveniences. The Courts continually look for other methods to not penalise effectively as these thugs return again.

If nearly all low-level crime was solved, then there would be much less of it to begin with

Couldn't agree more. What is disgusting is that the police must prioritise their resources and so ignore crime until it is severe. Writing off many violent crimes that get no attention.

when did they last willingly assist their local police?

I've done this and also attempted this a few times. The High Peak Plod btw are more pro active than many I've experienced.
I have called to report a disturbance that I perceived could escalate. Police too busy. Next day they want me as witness as the guy had a knife and threatened. I saw nowt, my call was pointless.

I've reported criminal damage, witnessed by 2, ignored.

I've been told off for reporting a crime as it wasn't considered urgent. Told to call 101.
I've called 101 twice, and sat so long waiting I gave up. Suspicious persons and activity was away by then anyway.

The criminal plans some and is more difficult to capture.
If we catch them at it and need defend we are then an easy target for prosecution and need prove defence and not taking the law into our own hands. That could be very life changing as the courts are tasked with deciding.

The 13 yo was out of hospital to be arrested soon enough, not a severe out come there. I perceive the van bods exercised some control of their behaviour. Shame really.

 

[Jukie]

I don't know I am neither a lawyer nor a copper.

Assuming the suspect is identified and arrested (I haven't watched any video clips in this thread), he/she will be interviewed, as much evidence gathered as possible and then it will be over to the CPS and the courts. No way the police would look to deal with this with an "out of court" sanction, it's too serious an offence.

 

[Jukie]

As for local social norms and what is considered socially acceptable behaviour in the community... just look at the case of the 18 years old drug dealer who was doing his rounds delivering cannabis to his 'clients' riding a stolen and cloned bike for which he had no driving license, then crashed and died while trying to flee from an unmarked police car that was following him.

The local community in his home borough of Islington protested and demonstrated insisting that the police officers following him stand trail for manslaughter.T

And therein lies one of the biggest problems we, as a society, face. The inability and unwillingness to take/accept personal responsibility, either directly or indirectly.

Did he deserve to die? No. However, if he'd been a law-abiding citizen or even simply stopped for the police officers, he would most likely still be alive today. Clearly not the officers' fault but they have suffered the consequences of doing their job and that's before being unjustly pilloried by the ignorant masses.