159mph copper 'not dangerous' BBC report

[glojo]

Hi Glojo,

The PC was NOT responding to an Emergency and was "messing" around... Fair enough if he was ona 999 call BUT he was not...

Hi Flash,
First off I'm not defending this officer's actions but where do you suggest they hone\learn the skills of driving at speeds in excess of the legal limit?

I have never read anywhere, anything that would suggest he was 'messing' around!!!

I want ALL oue emergency drivers to respond as quickly as safety allows to ANY emergency, but surely they ALL must have adequate training and this MUST be an ongoing requirement?

Where do you suggest this is done and HOW?

Take care,
John

 

[Flash]

Hi Flash,
First off I'm not defending this officer's actions but where do you suggest they hone\learn the skills of driving at speeds in excess of the legal limit?

I have never read anywhere, anything that would suggest he was 'messing' around!!!

I want ALL oue emergency drivers to respond as quickly as safety allows to ANY emergency, but surely they ALL must have adequate training and this MUST be an ongoing requirement?

Where do you suggest this is done and HOW?

Take care,
John

Thats why they have "Trained Instructors" for the Police - they should do it under their "supervision" and get assessed on it just like we had to first of all learn to how to drive with our "Driving Instructors'..." and NOT just fancy doing 159MPH when they feel like it on their own - Now how "unsafe" is that if NOT been trained to do it by an expert with you...

Well he was "NOT" attending an emergency now was he when he was speeding at 159MPH so in my opinion was "messing" about!!!

 

[Abbs985uk]

The officer did get a fair trial the first time round, he was allowed to call his witnesses and challenge the evidence against him, the fact is that there was no lawful justification for his driving in that manner and the Judge who said there was justification has now been told he took "irrelevant" factors into account in coming to the decision.

What relevance are factors such as weather, lighting, time of day and traffic build up in deciding if he was driving dangerously when he should not have been driving in that manner in the first place, ie. no emergency.

The Officer by calling his own senior instructor to commend his driving has shot himself in the foot. The instructor in fact gave evidence along the lines that the officer had considerable training and experience by way of attendance at training courses. If he became a "creme de la creme" driver by attending courses why the need to drive on a public road in the manner he did? It's these issues the High Court have said were not considered properly.

 

[RichieRuss2000]

Hasn't the new Playstation 3 got some excellent driving simulators... I know it’s not the same though why can't they train there?
We never see F1 or rally drivers practising on the public highway? High speed dangerous driving should be restricted for emergencies and not allowed on the public highway where your granny drives!

 

[glojo]

Hasn't the new Playstation 3 got some excellent driving simulators... I know it’s not the same though why can't they train there?
We never see F1 or rally drivers practising on the public highway? High speed dangerous driving should be restricted for emergencies and not allowed on the public highway where your granny drives!

The US military use street scenario's on computers and look at the way they treat countries they go to assist.

Your analogue highlights extremely well my exact point. Formula 1 drivers practice their skills in EXACTLY the enviroment within which they race!!!!!! Rally drivers are in the same 'boat'... They only exceed any speed limit on special closed sections.

I believe some Police Forces do indeed use driving simulators but I stand by my previous message.

Train how you want to fight
and fight how you train

On Microprose Formula 1 I hold numerous track records ans am a World Champion???? I have NEVER even sat in a Formula 1 car.

I have treated your comments with respect, but they have bought a smile to my face. Thanks very much.

As I always say, I am NOT defending this officer because I have NO idea of the true facts of the case.

I simply want our emergency drivers to receive the best possible training.

Abbs
Where do you suggest these officers receive their training?

John

 

[Abbs985uk]

Hi Glojo

The officer could have recieved his training, with appropriate supervision and assessment, at one of the many training exercises organised by West Mercia and West Midlands police whereby public roads have been used in Shropshire, organised to exclude the public. In addition the forces do use specific driver training courses/locations.

To say the officer was "honing his skills" with no one with him to assess him, advise him or constructively criticise him is nothing short of a memebr of the public saying they were speeding to test how well they can drive/speed should the need ever arise!

If the officer was was testing his skills/abilities of the car then why do this whilst on active police duty? Why no not seek organised training for that vehicle? If he had caused an accident and killed someone would his assertions of "honing his skills" hold any water? I doubt it considering he was not responding to an emergency.

In short the officer was on a frolic of his own, none of his superiors knew he was "honing his skills", he did not have any form of radio contact with force control centres and to all exttent fell foul of the statutory provisions allowing speeding for emergency situations for police officers/guidance.

 

[glojo]

Hi Glojo

West Midlands police whereby public roads have been used in Shropshire, organised to exclude the public. In addition the forces do use specific driver training courses/locations.

Hi Abbs
As I keep saying I will not discuss this particular case, but learning skills on closed roads is not the same enviroment as where the driver will be expected to practice the newly learnt skills. Skid control and other specialised driving techniques are clearly better taught in a safe enviroment.

How can you possibly learn the very expert skills of making very safe but quick progress in a busy enviroment when you are only taught on closed roads??

A Police Officer that gets tragically killed whilst attending an armed robbery will usually be hailed a hero. Let us wind the clock back and instead of arriving promptly at the scene of this terrible incident, this officer collided with a deaf, partially blind, old age pensioner. This same 'hero' would have been castigated by those same folks who recorded their commiserations, same person, same vehicle, same incident.

Do you in all seriousness expect the Police to not contravene the national speed limit, or are you happy for them to only receive training in a completely sterile enviroment without any other road users, which is completely different from the world in which they will have to operate?

To use the Formula 1 analogue, do you remember Silverstone when an Irish idjut ventured onto the race track??? One pedestrian and the race was imeadiately put behind the official pace car? This was the proper and safe thing to do. Emergency response drivers MUST learn to be aware of all these types of hazards and yet still make progress. Racing drivers never usually have to take these problems into account and usually the traffic is all going in the same direction??

I am NOT defending this officer, I keep repeating this because again we are not fully aware of all the facts and I will not engage in gossip.

I am simply saying that there is a case for emergency drivers getting the full performance from their vehicles when NOT on an actual emergency.

If Constable Dopey decided to simply take out a patrol car and then video themselves driving through busy streets at rediculously high speeds then I would politely suggest that this person might not be best suited as a Police Officer!!!

Hopefully that clarifies my position a bit clearer?

John

 

[Sp!ke]

I don't see him protecting or serving anyone by driving at 159mph because he 'wanted to know what it felt like',

TVP policy no pursuit shall go over 120mph. If it does call in air support. I am sure his force would have similiar upper limited policy, and I bet it's not 160 mph.

In which case... why the need for familiarising himself at that speed.

 

[Swiss Toni]

I don't see him protecting or serving anyone by driving at 159mph because he 'wanted to know what it felt like',

TVP policy no pursuit shall go over 120mph. If it does call in air support. I am sure his force would have similiar upper limited policy, and I bet it's not 160 mph.

In which case... why the need for familiarising himself at that speed.

A lack of Policy seems to be part of the problem -

If there were no Maximum Policy (a bit of a joke really, how urgent is URGENT?!) and no air support in that Force, does that make it ok?

 

[Swiss Toni]

I'm not aware of the full circumstances of this case, so it seems a bit inappropriate to jump an a media bandwagon, but....

It raises important issues.

You have to train the Police to the highest standards (which will involve off-public road an on-public road training) - but what is the punishment for those who fall below those high standards? (and is "noble cause" justification - ie I was en route to save a family from a burning house? or glojos Bank Robbery?)


If a Cop gives less than 100% in getting to your peril, will you criticise them?

If a Cop gives 100% and gets it wrong will you criticise them?


How many mistakes did you make on the road today? and would your driving stand up to the srutiny of a Video watched by the Crown Prosecution Service?


This case will generate a useful debate, and no doubt a little hypocracy from "both sides" of the issue.

 

[Dieselman]

A point that the pro Policeman speeding posts appear to miss is that it was the Officers own force that sent the evidence to the CPS in the first instance.

Surely this is an indication that the speed attained was inappropriate and breached the rules in force governing the use of that forces vehicles.

 

[glojo]

A point that the pro Policeman speeding posts appear to miss is that it was the Officers own force that sent the evidence to the CPS in the first instance.

Surely this is an indication that the speed attained was inappropriate and breached the rules in force governing the use of that forces vehicles.

Is there anyone that is defending the alleged actions of this individual?

John

 

[PJH]

Well he's finally been found guilty, but given an absolute discharge....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/5284962.stm

 

[glojo]

I have just heard on the news that he intends appealing the conviction!!

John

 

[anarchy-inc]

You know what really gets me going about this? He was found not guilty and then the high court ordered a re-trial? WTF? Once you're tried and found innocent, that should be it.

 

[glojo]

You know what really gets me going about this? He was found not guilty and then the high court ordered a re-trial? WTF? Once you're tried and found innocent, that should be it.

Half of me agrees totally with your comments, but then I think of other high profile cases where thugs have quite literally got away with murder, thankfully they have now had a retrial and justice was done.

I am NOT disagreeing, I am undecided, but there is definitely more to this particular case than meets the eye.

Lots of incidents never get prosecuted because they are not in 'the public interest'. I wonder if this was ever a consideration for this particular incident?

John

John

 

[scumbag]

complete discharge.

and quite rightly. this was a case that was tried, and retried in the public media. it should have been left in the courts.

total waste of money.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/5284962.stm


Maff's up next week for irresponsible driving!!

 

[league67]

91mph in 30mph zone ?!?!

And West Mercia Police wants to appeal ??? Appeal on the grounds that judge dismissed 'being advanced driver' as relevant ???
How many lives were put at risk for him to familiarize himself with a car ?
Let allow any doctor or firefighter (maybe even plumbers (corgi registered ones)) to do the same, just in case they have to attend life/death situation.
If anyone else (not-a-police), even with four advanced driver courses is speeding that much they'd be banned for very very long time.
Totally and utterly outrageous.
I don't care how well you drive and how good the car is, in 30mph zone, someone gets in a way, they are dead.

 

[glojo]

And West Mercia Police wants to appeal ??? Appeal on the grounds that judge dismissed 'being advanced driver' as relevant ???
How many lives were put at risk for him to familiarise himself with a car ?

Once again this highlights my old saying, "Never let the truth spoil a good story!"

I would suggest it was his own Police Force that recommended he be reported for the motoring offences and then submitted the papers to the CPS?? I don't know this for sure because none of us are privy to what went on, but it is NOT the West Mercia Police that are going to appeal. It is the convicted individual.

I wonder if he has been on full duties for the last couple of years, or has he been on restricted duties or perhaps suspended? I ask this because if he has been either suspended or on restricted duties then the financial loss will already be horrendous. I am NOT passing judgement as I am not aware of the facts, but I do believe it is NOT his Police force that is to appeal against the judges decision.

Regards,
John

 

[league67]

.....

Once again this highlights my old saying, "Never let the truth spoil a good story!"

I would suggest it was his own Police Force that recommended he be reported for the motoring offences and then submitted the papers to the CPS?? I don't know this for sure because none of us are privy to what went on, but it is NOT the West Mercia Police that are going to appeal. It is the convicted individual.

I wonder if he has been on full duties for the last couple of years, or has he been on restricted duties or perhaps suspended? I ask this because if he has been either suspended or on restricted duties then the financial loss will already be horrendous. I am NOT passing judgement as I am not aware of the facts, but I do believe it is NOT his Police force that is to appeal against the judges decision.

Regards,
John

And as my new saying goes lets NOT read the reports before resorting to old sayings ...

However, West Mercia Police Federation said it was "disappointed" with the guilty verdict and that it would lodge an appeal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5286898.stm

3rd paragraph from the end ...

Regards Voya