3.2 M104 with ITB's

Discussion in 'Engine' started by Niks, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. Niks

    Niks Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,542
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    M104 3.2 running ITB's, looks like those are BMW ones. Wonder how much difference it makes in hp/torque? Very interesting!

    YouTube - ‪Canal de bvlahov‬‏
     
    4 people like this.
  2. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    That car is on the 190rev forums, and they are m5 throttle bodies.
    Here is a better pic, and also a pic of the carlsson c37 engine which also used them:D
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2011
  3. d w124

    d w124 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,346
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Location:
    london
    Car:
    w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
    Niks managed to find that a good while back and Carlsson was very pleased to share the info
     
  4. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    I wonder how they would perform on a standard c36 engine?
     
  5. d w124

    d w124 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,346
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Location:
    london
    Car:
    w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
    Well:The bhp did not have much increase but the torque was another story though
     
  6. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    Might be a upgrade for me at a later date, if I convert to efi that is. I have seen set's of m5 itb's go for as little as 300 pounds on ebay, and I'm sure I read somewhere that the port spacing is nearly the same?
     
  7. d w124

    d w124 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,346
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Location:
    london
    Car:
    w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
    Seen them go even for less but :D Don`t like to have anything to do with BMW on my car though
     
  8. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    It would be a reasonable way to more power though, without spending a small fortune on something like jenveys or similar.
     
  9. d w124

    d w124 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,346
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Location:
    london
    Car:
    w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
    If I can get my saloon running 300 hp,I`d be a happy man :thumb:
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    The one in the pictures at the bottom of your posts? That is a sharp looking car. M104?
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. d w124

    d w124 MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    12,346
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Location:
    london
    Car:
    w124 3.6AMG styling E320 S124 Lorinser styling
  12. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    Just read your restoration thread, car looks gorgeous.

    When you do get the 3.6 in, that will get you fairly near to your 300hp goal. That is my aim with my 3.6, although I did have a breif fling with a twin turbo m103, but sold the kit to fit my m104 hybrid engine insted.
     
  13. OP
    OP
    Niks

    Niks Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,542
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    You'll have to fabricate an adapter to fit the ITB unit to the engine, including its own custom gasket/seal. Its a hell of a job but there are people doing it who have the knowledge. I believe Roman (pumpish on youtube), otherwise known as Turbo Bandit has made an aluminum intake manifold for the M104 engine (ready to buy), which the BMW ITB's will bolt directly onto.

    Trouble is, someone who has actually done something like this needs to report gains or losses in bhp/torque/mpg figures/reliability and so on to make it a worth while modification for others to do. Otherwise it would be just pointless and a waste of time, would be cheaper to add a supercharger or turbo instead.

    I was on the phone to Carlsson in germany for an whole hour talking to a guy who worked in the development process of the M104 3.7 engine. Two engine types were available, first being the 3.6 running the standard MB inlet manifolds and the second 3.7 running the ITB setup which cost an extra 14,000 DM at the time. This engine had extensive modifications to the interior than that of the AMG 3.6. Alot of the data has now been lost since they stopped production of the C37, so it was only the guys who worked on these cars remember from memory what the modifications were.
     
    2 people like this.
  14. Charles Morgan

    Charles Morgan MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,207
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Car:
    Mercedes 250CE W114, Alfa Romeo GT Coupe 3.2 V6
    I am considering putting throttle bodies and a slightly more racy cam on my little BMW 02, and I would be happy if the combination gave me another 30bhp maximum, as that makes a lot of difference on a little car. With that though the mod is entirely reversible, and the map on the car would be adjusted to take account of it all to get the most out.

    I would be quite wary of having a mod that had to be welded on, and how would one get the most out of it with an engine that is not set up to be re-mapped? Lots like a lot of cost to me.

    Incidentally, adding a turbo / supercharger would most probably be a very expensive job. Not if you are going a tried and tested route, but if custom I was quoted about 10k for my BMW as the garage, correctly, wanted me to understand getting it right and OEM takes a very long time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  15. carat 3.6

    carat 3.6 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,923
    Joined:
    May 11, 2011
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire, yuppie central 1985.
    Car:
    96 e300d, 88 w124 superturbodiesel, 90 bmw E30 v8, + "others"
    Making the adapter is'nt too much of a problem, I would have to go custom anyway as I have the m104.980 head so off the shelf upgrades are non existant!

    The tuning afterwards would be the biggest expense.
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Niks

    Niks Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    1,542
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Charles, I looked on the net and it seems a lot of people who own modified 02's have gone down the road of ITBs. This makes it a lot more easier in terms of knowing others have done it and have set the car up properly, so more resources are available to you for reference.

    ITB's seem good for better bhp figures at the higher rev range, so you will lose torque on the lower end. If im not mistaken, this was the difference with the BMW M5, you had to rev its nuts off to get the power. Mercedes had the higher torque available in the lower rev range with its longer intake pipes.

    Carat, for any of the M104 engines it will have to be a custom job. Its worth browsing the W202 forums as some guys who own C36 AMGs have done extensive custom supercharger and turbocharger upgrades. I think the main problem they had was how much boost they can run on a 3.6 as its compression ratio is already high at 10.5.1. Adding more boost on that compression ratio apparently keeps blowing MB headgaskets unless you can fabricate a slightly thicker one made from copper. This will ensure a good seal all round the engine and prevent any oil leaks from the front or the rear of the engine, with the advantage of handling boost much better for the long term.

    Having said that, a guy in the US (Street Power Magazine, April '97) twin turbo'd his C36 with rebuilt heads, pistons and other bits. He managed 561bhp using the stock block and compression ratio 10.5.1. running 8 psi boost. Not sure how long that engine lasted for though.

    Anyways, everyone has different needs and requirements. Personally I share the same sentiments as Dash, 300bhp will do me just fine just as long as it keeps me infront of those damn 2.0 turbo diesels! :)
     
    2 people like this.
  17. Charles Morgan

    Charles Morgan MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,207
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Car:
    Mercedes 250CE W114, Alfa Romeo GT Coupe 3.2 V6
    Oh yes, plenty of 02 aftermarket ITBs around. I don't think I'll be going this loud, but I like the style!
     
  18. bolide

    bolide Hardcore MB Enthusiast

    Messages:
    3,726
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2005
    Location:
    Brighton
    Car:
    BMW E39 525 Diesel Touring
    Charles, I looked on the net and it seems a lot of people who own modified 02's have gone down the road of ITBs. This makes it a lot more easier in terms of knowing others have done it and have set the car up properly, so more resources are available to you for reference.[/QUOTE]

    Torque curve is a function of the cam and map more than the type of injection setup. Replacing single-point injection with ITBs, all other things being equal, shouldn't reduce the torque

    I think aftermarket injection and ITBs on an M104 are great ideas in principle. But I think it'd take a huge amount of work to make either (or both) better than the standard setup

    Nick Froome
    the independent Mercedes Estate specialists
     
  19. wemorgan

    wemorgan MB Club Veteran

    Messages:
    8,120
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Car:
    A205 C220d
    Similar games are played with MX5's. It's interesting and fun, but naturally quite expensive. Even with ITB, cam profiles, ignition timing, rpm increase, porting/polishing, ECU, the cars are mostly < 100bhp/litre.

    I think someone has put a Honda S2000 engine in a MX5 which gives him 120bhp/litre. I guess it's easier to justify such swaps on cheap MX5 rather than more classic cars.
     
Tags:

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.