ABC - Strut and pump replacements in quick succession

[starlight]

An ABC strut has just been replaced on my 2003 SL500 at a cost of £1,300 following the 'soft' 'ABC Visit Workshop' malfunction warning.

As soon as the car was returned, the dash flashed up the 'red' warning: 'ABC - Drive Carefully!'.

The repairer is now telling me that the pump also needs to be replaced - another £1,300 or so.

I'm struggling to understand this. I would have thought that any problems with the pump pressure would have been detected by STAR when the 'soft' warning was investigated and it's improbable - to say the least - that a pump failure would manifest itself immediately after the strut was fitted. And, of course, I'm wondering whether the problem was pump-related all along.

I need to ask some difficult questions of the garage and any views on this would be appreciated. I know, of course, that the ABC system on the R230 is a nightmare... along with the consumer battery problems, water leaks, SBC system... and more.

 

[lxi]

Hate to say it but I had nearly the same. Both front struts replaced due to balljoint wear (thank you Warranty Direct) only to have the pump fail very shortly after (thanks again Warranty Direct!!)

 

[cb1965]

An ABC strut has just been replaced on my 2003 SL500 at a cost of £1,300 following the 'soft' 'ABC Visit Workshop' malfunction warning.

As soon as the car was returned, the dash flashed up the 'red' warning: 'ABC - Drive Carefully!'.

The repairer is now telling me that the pump also needs to be replaced - another £1,300 or so.

I'm struggling to understand this. I would have thought that any problems with the pump pressure would have been detected by STAR when the 'soft' warning was investigated and it's improbable - to say the least - that a pump failure would manifest itself immediately after the strut was fitted. And, of course, I'm wondering whether the problem was pump-related all along.

I need to ask some difficult questions of the garage and any views on this would be appreciated. I know, of course, that the ABC system on the R230 is a nightmare... along with the consumer battery problems, water leaks, SBC system... and more.

If I was to guess the cause it would be contamination of the hydraulic fluid.

These systems need the fluid to be as clean as possible which is why when my car had ABC work a month or so back I insisted on a flush and new fluid and even supplied the workshop with 6l of it myself so they had it to hand.

I also insisted they were uber careful not to get dirt in the system at all when replacing the parts even if it meant the job taking longer (I figured an extra £100 labour beats £1300 for a pump).

The pump is notorious for failing due to contamination!

 

[starlight]

So, is it possible that the system was contaminated when the strut was replaced, I wonder (not that the workshop will be up for that possibility)?

And, yes, should have gone to Warranty Direct. Given the long list of likely problems with the R230, very brave of them to take this model on!

 

[maha]

How the hell did warranty direct pay out

 

[lxi]

I think contamination although always a possibility is unlikely. When you said "repairer" - was it MB / a recognised indie?

There's always a chance of air in the system in which case a rodeo cycle might clear it. The main thing is it needs to be with someone who knows the model & its foibles inside out.

Star is a vital tool, but it can sometimes point at the symptom rather than the cause which can get very expensive

 

[lxi]

How the hell did warranty direct pay out

by cheque

It was 3, maybe 4 years back - they've no doubt tightened up since

 

[starlight]

The repairer was a (very large) MB dealership who ought to have lots of experience with the problematic ABC. Of course, I'm now regretting not going to one of the local indies who take a more 'diagnostic' approach without the predisposition to replace parts until they get a solution.

The pump replacement is now in progress. Perhaps I should have given this more thought, but I couldn't see another option.

Any suggestions as to the questions I should be asking the workshop before I hand over my credit card?

 

[lxi]

The repairer was a (very large) MB dealership who ought to have lots of experience with the problematic ABC. Of course, I'm now regretting not going to one of the local indies who take a more 'diagnostic' approach without the predisposition to replace parts until they get a solution.

The pump replacement is now in progress. Perhaps I should have given this more thought, but I couldn't see another option.

Any suggestions as to the questions I should be asking the workshop before I hand over my credit card?

I would be asking them to specify the exact nature of the fault with the strut they replaced and the exact nature of the fault with the pump.

If your opening post was accurate, ie "As soon as the car was returned, the dash flashed up the 'red' warning: 'ABC - Drive Carefully!'." then it's clear they didn't test the car properly or indeed they are blindly following the Star "diagnosis".

Either way I would be looking a for a serious discount on both the parts - they can go to 25% if cornered like a rat and an even bigger discount on labour. I've managed 50% in circumstances of "It's obvious to us both you got it wrong"

 

[cb1965]

So, is it possible that the system was contaminated when the strut was replaced, I wonder (not that the workshop will be up for that possibility)?

I can't say for definite obviously in your case, but pumps have a history of failing after the ABC system has been messed with. I have no idea what level of engineering expertise you possess, but ask yourself why that might be?

I know I go against popular opinion here, but maybe actually understanding something about hydraulic systems is more important than what appears to be a large dose of blind faith with a side serving of wishful thinking where some champions of MB's more complex vehicle systems are concerned!

 

[Mr Kripling]

What I find surprising is that your pump went straight to the red warning. When my ABC pump was on the way out it would occasionally flash the "soft" warning which would usually go away after a restart. For it to go to red suggests to me that it's not just been wearing slowly but that something has failed outright.

 

[starlight]

I would be asking them to specify the exact nature of the fault with the strut they replaced and the exact nature of the fault with the pump.

If your opening post was accurate, ie "As soon as the car was returned, the dash flashed up the 'red' warning: 'ABC - Drive Carefully!'." then it's clear they didn't test the car properly or indeed they are blindly following the Star "diagnosis".

Either way I would be looking a for a serious discount on both the parts - they can go to 25% if cornered like a rat and an even bigger discount on labour. I've managed 50% in circumstances of "It's obvious to us both you got it wrong"

That's really helpful - thank you. And, yes, as soon as I got into to the car after the strut replacement and turned the key, the 'red' ABC warning appeared. If this ends in stalemate,do you know if there's any advantage in bringing in Mercedes-Benz UK - or do they just stand by their dealers in this sort of situation?

 

[starlight]

What I find surprising is that your pump went straight to the red warning. When my ABC pump was on the way out it would occasionally flash the "soft" warning which would usually go away after a restart. For it to go to red suggests to me that it's not just been wearing slowly but that something has failed outright.

It was a two-stage process. The problem started with the 'soft' warning, which was intermittent and clear itself after a restart, until it became permanent. Then, as you'd gather, the 'red' appeared after the new strut was fitted. So, of course, there's the possibility it was the pump all along and the workshop took a wrong punt on the strut.

 

[starlight]

I can't say for definite obviously in your case, but pumps have a history of failing after the ABC system has been messed with. I have no idea what level of engineering expertise you possess, but ask yourself why that might be?

I know I go against popular opinion here, but maybe actually understanding something about hydraulic systems is more important than what appears to be a large dose of blind faith with a side serving of wishful thinking where some champions of MB's more complex vehicle systems are concerned!

I suppose it's possible the pump was on the way out and couldn't 'cope' with the new strut. As to an understanding of hydraulic systems, I can easily see the advantage - but I think it's asking a bit much of M-B customers driving a car that cost north of £80k new to have an engineering qualification! The reality is that, unhappily, most have to invest a degree of blind faith in M-B workshops - or decent indies - and rely on really on the generous supply of advice from co-owners such as your goodself when it all goes wrong.

 

[lxi]

That's really helpful - thank you. And, yes, as soon as I got into to the car after the strut replacement and turned the key, the 'red' ABC warning appeared. If this ends in stalemate,do you know if there's any advantage in bringing in Mercedes-Benz UK - or do they just stand by their dealers in this sort of situation?

If you mean in the dealer car park, I presume marched straight back in again - was it at that point they divined the pump was the issue? If so, more than discount on the pump, I'd be looking for a full refund (parts & labour) for the strut unless they can prove there was an issue.

The best I can suggest is by example on my first SL. Car went bouncy, red ABC visit workshop message. Did this.

Star said "NSF strut" - replaced. Fault remained.
Star said "Valve block" - replaced. Fault remained.
Star said "Transponder" - replaced. Fault remained. (at least that could come off again)
Customer (me) said "Will you listen to me - I said when I brought it in, when the car went bouncy, every bump came through the radio as interference - this is electrical" Mechanic replaced a £25 wire from strut top - sorted.

As cb1965 said, things can go wrong after they've been messed with and he's absolutely correct, but if the fault was there as soon as you got back in, I say the fault was possibly the pump in the first place, but Star unfortunately can only see in straight lines.

Absolutely no point in approaching MB, but every point in the world getting hold of the service director (not service manager) and/or after sales director and/or dealer principle. The best approach is calm, logical, controlled - lay out the facts and stand your ground.

 

[starlight]

If you mean in the dealer car park, I presume marched straight back in again - was it at that point they divined the pump was the issue? If so, more than discount on the pump, I'd be looking for a full refund (parts & labour) for the strut unless they can prove there was an issue.

The best I can suggest is by example on my first SL. Car went bouncy, red ABC visit workshop message. Did this.

Star said "NSF strut" - replaced. Fault remained.
Star said "Valve block" - replaced. Fault remained.
Star said "Transponder" - replaced. Fault remained. (at least that could come off again)
Customer (me) said "Will you listen to me - I said when I brought it in, when the car went bouncy, every bump came through the radio as interference - this is electrical" Mechanic replaced a £25 wire from strut top - sorted.

As cb1965 said, things can go wrong after they've been messed with and he's absolutely correct, but if the fault was there as soon as you got back in, I say the fault was possibly the pump in the first place, but Star unfortunately can only see in straight lines.

Absolutely no point in approaching MB, but every point in the world getting hold of the service director (not service manager) and/or after sales director and/or dealer principle. The best approach is calm, logical, controlled - lay out the facts and stand your ground.

Looking at your experience, I'm now concerned that the pump may not be the end of it.

Yes: the red light did appear in the dealer's forecourt and I did march straight back in. I had to leave the car and they called the next day to say the pump needed replaced.

I'm going to email the service director (cc dealer principal) with a list of questions much assisted by the help from you and others here.

 

[fast28]

One way to know if there is a fault with the pump is often the fault codes that relate to the system pressure. The pump must generate a given pressure. It can be monitored during a rodeo test to observe any sudden drop in pressure. Another fault related to the pump is the suction restrictor valve that controls the flow of fluid into the pump, this can fail but it is a non repairable part within the pump assembly.
After opening the system to air and pressure warnings start to appear for the first time I would investigate the possibility of air cavitation within the pump. If this is the case then the ABC reservoir needs to be pressurised to prime the pump. There could have been pressure problems with the pump beforehand, if so then pressure fault codes would have been logged.

 

[starlight]

One way to know if there is a fault with the pump is often the fault codes that relate to the system pressure. The pump must generate a given pressure. It can be monitored during a rodeo test to observe any sudden drop in pressure. Another fault related to the pump is the suction restrictor valve that controls the flow of fluid into the pump, this can fail but it is a non repairable part within the pump assembly.
After opening the system to air and pressure warnings start to appear for the first time I would investigate the possibility of air cavitation within the pump. If this is the case then the ABC reservoir needs to be pressurised to prime the pump. There could have been pressure problems with the pump beforehand, if so then pressure fault codes would have been logged.

Yes. I would have thought that a problem with the pump pressure would have shown up as soon as Star was plugged in: otherwise the mystery is why the pump failed after the strut was replaced.

 

[starlight]

Absolutely no point in approaching MB, but every point in the world getting hold of the service director (not service manager) and/or after sales director and/or dealer principle.

Just out of curiosity... I recall that a few years ago M-B dealerships were generating a huge number of complaints to M-B UK. In fact, I read in the The Telegraph that one very unhappy customer actually 'kidnapped' a sales manager and drove him to Milton Keynes. I thought they taking a tighter grip on the quality of franchisees - but you think not?

I'm emailing the Service Director tomorrow. I've 'phoned ahead to say that I won't be handing over my credit card until he answers a series of questions. Thanks to all posters for giving me the ammo.

 

[lxi]

Just out of curiosity... I recall that a few years ago M-B dealerships were generating a huge number of complaints to M-B UK. In fact, I read in the The Telegraph that one very unhappy customer actually 'kidnapped' a sales manager and drove him to Milton Keynes. I thought they taking a tighter grip on the quality of franchisees - but you think not?

I'm emailing the Service Director tomorrow. I've 'phoned ahead to say that I won't be handing over my credit card until he answers a series of questions. Thanks to all posters for giving me the ammo.

A number of things work against getting anything from MB, not the least of them being the age of the car. I'd say the first thing is to try to deal the dealer.

It's important I think that you speak to the service director and not give him the opportunity to respond by email. Being behind a keyboard changes people dramatically (you see it on fora like this all the time!) but they are much more likely to deal face to face - in person ideally but at least by phone.

As I said before (hope this doesn't sound patronising - not intended to) there are ways of getting the best out of the situation. Be Mr Reasonable - stay calm, controlled, avoid direct accusations BUT list the sequence of events in such a way that hopefully there is one obvious conclusion but let him reach it himself.

Often "less is more" when you talk to reach a deal. Don't feel the need to keep talking - state your case & stay silent - he'll feel the need to reply.

You could drop into conversation the fact that you are a member here, you've given the story so far & there are several who have experienced similar "address the symptoms but maybe not the cause" situations. Make it clear you haven't revealed the name of the dealership and say you have no intention of doing so in order he doesn't feel a threat. But he'll realise the possibility if he doesn't play fair.

You could actually go further & say that if he reaches a good compromise, you'll give them good press.

Best of luck