Accident (non fault) advice?

[coneybiller]

Hi all,

I bought a W211 E320 CDI on the 24th of April this year. I waited a little while until I found one I liked and had the spec I wanted and negotiated the price down to £3400. It’s a late registered 3.2l straight 6 on an 06 plate with 1 previous owner and has now got 85k on the clock. It is in pretty good condition cosmetically and very good mechanically.

Now, a couple of weeks ago (18th of August) I had to stop quick due to a silly van driver that was making a ridiculous manoeuvre just round a semi blind bend. The range rover behind me didn’t stop and rear ended me! It was only a low speed accident (sub 15mph), but enough to push my bumper downwards off of its mounts and stretch it slightly. No other damage, boot lid and rear lights unaffected and my foldaway tow bar still operates fine.
The insurance sorted out the claim relatively quickly (I phoned them 10mins after it happened) and within 1hr the other party had accepted liability. He was insured with the same company as me (Esure) and it’s all been fairly smooth up until now.
Due to Covid, the accident repair company they selected to asses the damage, wouldn’t send an engineer to me and instead asked me to send pictures. I did so without quibbling. A week later I awoke to a text message notifying me that my car has been declared a total loss Cat N and that they have “valued” my car at £2800. I attempted to phone them that afternoon (after many tries) and managed to speak to their 3rd party department who said that I can keep the car if I so wish and that they will take £960 salvage off of the valuation and pay me £1840.
Now, I’m not happy with the valuation, since I’ve owned the car for just over 4months and I’m now potentially out of pocket at least £600 + the hundreds I’ve spent on preventative maintenance. Ive insisted that it’s not enough, but they have refused to budge on their valuation figure!
Apparently, they have used the ombudsman’s guidelines in their valuation and believe this to be a fair price. I’ve spoken to the ombudsmen who state that I should make a complaint to esure (which I did yesterday) and that if it’s not resolved within 8 weeks then they can help with the complaint but are not able to take over the claim due to me being the 3rd party!
It’s all sounding like I don’t have a leg to stand on and I just have to swallow the pill that they’ve dealt me!

They’ve wrote my car off without even seeing it or showing me an engineers report (which I requested btw, but still haven’t seen) and are now dictating to me what my cars value is without me even having a say in the matter! I feel like they could of just plucked a figure out of nowhere and said take it or leave it, either way tough luck!

Does anyone have any suggestions or experience with this situation? It’s driving me crazy!

Regards

Ben

 

[coneybiller]

 

[ChrisHGTV]

I had this once before with a previous Alfa. It seems unless you have a car that is quite run of the mill they find it difficult to come up with an accurate valuation. I sent my insurers examples of similar cars for sale and suggested they either buy one of these as replacement or pay me the equivalent (both of which was more than they had offered). They agreed on a higher valuation. In my case it was just a person in the office with no real idea of "specialist" cars who took the cheapest valuation they found in Parkers etc.

 

[coneybiller]

I had this once before with a previous Alfa. It seems unless you have a car that is quite run of the mill they find it difficult to come up with an accurate valuation. I sent my insurers examples of similar cars for sale and suggested they either buy one of these as replacement or pay me the equivalent (both of which was more than they had offered). They agreed on a higher valuation. In my case it was just a person in the office with no real idea of "specialist" cars who took the cheapest valuation they found in Parkers etc.

They’ve said that their valuation isn’t based on cars for sale, but what the “market value” of the vehicle is, due to the fact that people can pay or ask what they want for a car! What a load of tosh!
I explained cars of similar age and mileage are going for between 3500 and 4000 on auto trader, for which she replied “the valuation isn’t down to our department and that they don’t have any influence on the decision, but they will relay it back to the engineers team and let me know”!

 

[Tonygw]

This is exactly why I hate insurance companies so much, they are legal thieves. Yet the UK law says we Have to use them and b at their mercy.

If I was you I would 1. lodge an official complaint with them and the ombudsman 2. find 3-4 examples of similar cars for sale, more the better and send them the adverts. 3. Do not accept their first valuation and make as much fuss as you can, speak to as many mangers as you can. Also show them your purchase receipt since you have only just bought the car. They really cant argue with that.

Good luck, I feel your pain.

cheers

 

[ToeKnee]

So am I correct in thinking you can keep the car as it is and they'll pay you £1840? In which case why not do that and get it repaired? Or do you think the repair
will cost more than £1840?

 

[coneybiller]

This is exactly why I hate insurance companies so much, they are legal thieves. Yet the UK law says we Have to use them and b at their mercy.

If I was you I would 1. lodge an official complaint with them and the ombudsman 2. find 3-4 examples of similar cars for sale, more the better and send them the adverts. 3. Do not accept their first valuation and make as much fuss as you can, speak to as many mangers as you can. Also show them your purchase receipt since you have only just bought the car. They really cant argue with that.

Good luck, I feel your pain.

cheers

Thanks for that, yea it’s a royal pain. From what the ombudsmen said, as a third party, they can’t take on the case. But they can help me with the complaint after 8 weeks have elapsed and no satisfied outcome has arisen.
I have lodged a complaint (or at least I think I have, seeing as it was them who suggested the complaint and that she would pass it on) and explained that I would like it noted that I will be speaking with the ombudsmen.

The worse part, is that I sought the insurance out through comparethemarket and entered the vehicle value as £3500. Looking on my actual insurance documents on esure, it states the value as “market value” so not even what I had entered!
Another reason why I worry I’m not going to get what I should do!

 

[ChrisHGTV]

They’ve said that their valuation isn’t based on cars for sale, but what the “market value” of the vehicle is, due to the fact that people can pay or ask what they want for a car! What a load of tosh!
I explained cars of similar age and mileage are going for between 3500 and 4000 on auto trader, for which she replied “the valuation isn’t down to our department and that they don’t have any influence on the decision, but they will relay it back to the engineers team and let me know”!

They tried thins line with me, which is when i said why don't they just buy me a suitable replacement. That's when they upped their offer to match the ads i'd sent from Autotrader. I think Tony is right - you just have to be a nuisance until they see it's cheaper for them to pay you off rather than continually argue.

 

[coneybiller]

So am I correct in thinking you can keep the car as it is and they'll pay you £1840? In which case why not do that and get it repaired? Or do you think the repair
will cost more than £1840?

You are right, and they have sent me an “interim cheque” for that amount (which I have received). It also states on the letter with the cheque, “In full and final settlement of your claim against the policyholder”. Which means I don’t want to cash it until it’s fully settled in case they say “Well you’ve accepted the money, tough luck.”

I see what you’re saying, and I will get it repaired, however it’s not the true value of the car! It’s worth at least what I paid for it or more now as I’ve repaired all of the mechanical issues it had. So the figure they’re paying me, should be in line with the actual value of the car.

 

[BPD07]

Sorry to hear that, they wrote my SL350 off last year, based on photos alone. Their garages/body shops charge top hourly rates and use new parts it very quickly exceeds the write off value. Best way is to find comparatives for sale from Motors/Autotrader - rembering it isn’t what you’ve put in to the car (service etc) it’s what it’s worth. I was paid out the same day - but couldn’t find an equivalent SL.

I’m looking for Agreed Value quotes on my other cars but it can be more expensive.

 

[coneybiller]

Sorry to hear that, they wrote my SL350 off last year, based on photos alone. Their garages/body shops charge top hourly rates and use new parts it very quickly exceeds the write off value. Best way is to find comparatives for sale from Motors/Autotrader - rembering it isn’t what you’ve put in to the car (service etc) it’s what it’s worth. I was paid out the same day - but couldn’t find an equivalent SL.

I’m looking for Agreed Value quotes on my other cars but it can be more expensive.

Equally, I’m sorry to hear about your SL! It’s a difficult situation. My car has the rare airmatic option (hence why I chose it), low mileage (for its model) and only one previous registered keeper. So finding another car with this spec, would be a monumental task.

It sounds like persistence is going to be the only avenue I have, that and sticking to my guns!
It’s not just £600, it’s the principle of it all!

 

[m80]

What you paid is irrelevant, people pay over the odds for various reasons.

To my mind what it can be replaced for is the true value, and insurance shouldn't expect you to spend masses of time trying to find a cheapo.

I assume the insurance are aware that you've already returned the car to the road. From that they assume their award covers the repair (and likely more) so you're in profit.

So maybe you get an independent valuation to support your view. Talk to the insurance 1st and see what they would prefer as far as you clarifying the vehicles value.

You saying "I paid more " doesn't cut it.
You stating a value on the documents doesn't cut it.
But you seeing reasonable examples on the market should, especially as we are still in times of silly inflated vehicle prices. It's been a sellers market for a while.
I'm not familiar with any book prices but would imagine that they are out of date.

 

[markjay]

Firstly, Esure have two hats here. They are your insurer, and totally separately, they are also the other-party's insurer.

Your position should have been that you are claiming directly off the other-party's policy, and, in respect of your own policy you are only making a notification of the incident, but not a claim (this is the correct procedure, even if the other-party happens to be insured by the same company as yourself).

Now, being a 3rd party to the others-party's policy (and nothing to do with the fact that it so-happens that you also have a separate policy with the same insurer), you are not bound by any T&C simply because you have are not signed-up to the other-party's policy.

Instead, you are entitled to full compensation from the other-party (in this case, via his insurer) for any proven financial damages caused to you by his actions. These include repairing your car (if commercially viable) or it's 'market value', cost of hire car (if the your car is not driveable), cost of travel to and from the garage, etc. The point I am trying to make is that your entitlement for compensation is totally unrelated to whatever are the T&Cs of your own policy (because you are not claiming off your own policy).

You are within your rights to reject the other-party's insurer valuation and offer. The fact that they told you that they were acting withing the Ombudsman guidelines are irrelevant, until you hear it from the Ombudsman itself. Their claim that prices of other similar cars on sale are not an indication of market valuation is pure fabrication.

What you should do is scan the private sale ads (not dealer or trade ads) on Autotrader, eBay, Gumtree, etc, for similar cars, in similar spec, in similar condition, with similar mileage, and similar service history (not easy, because as cars get older, the price variations can be considerable). Then, you need to remember that you are looking at asking price, the actual sale price will likely be a bit lower. And, you're actually looking at the lower price range, rather than at the upper or even at the average price, because the idea here is that 'you could buy another car like yours for £,£££', rather than what is the highest price you could have sold your car for. Also, look locally - on the premise that you need a suitable amount
to buy another car similar to yours, you can't really be expected to travel from (say) Wales to Scotland to buy it.

But, ultimately, the insurer's valuation might be fair. Keeping in mind that restitution means that you should be able to buy (privately) a similar car, and regardless of what you actually paid for yours, or how much you spent on it, or the amount of work you had to put into finding it in the first place.

But if you are certain that the insurer's valuation is too low - I.e., that you could not buy a similar car for the money they are offering - then stick to your guns and let the Ombudsman rule (if it came to that). But, if complaining to the Ombudsman, remember that the onus is on you to submit to the Ombudsman proof that you cannot buy a similar car for what has been offered, and also proof as to what is the lowest price that a similar car can be had for.

Good luck.

 

[grober]

Did I mention recently that consumer protection in the UK by government quangos is often ineffectual at grass roots level in so far as there appears to be no compensating factor in the process to take account of the legal/monetary resource available to each party in any dispute? One possible line of attack worth pursuing might be the recent atipical reversal in the direction of value of cars on the second hand car market where in the last 12 months they have appreciated considerably in value- implying your car at the time of the accident was worth more than you paid for it! Against that might be any increase in repair costs in the covid/ brexit aftermath.

 

[coneybiller]

What you paid is irrelevant, people pay over the odds for various reasons.

To my mind what it can be replaced for is the true value, and insurance shouldn't expect you to spend masses of time trying to find a cheapo.

I assume the insurance are aware that you've already returned the car to the road. From that they assume their award covers the repair (and likely more) so you're in profit.

So maybe you get an independent valuation to support your view. Talk to the insurance 1st and see what they would prefer as far as you clarifying the vehicles value.

You saying "I paid more " doesn't cut it.
You stating a value on the documents doesn't cut it.
But you seeing reasonable examples on the market should, especially as we are still in times of silly inflated vehicle prices. It's been a sellers market for a while.
I'm not familiar with any book prices but would imagine that they are out of date.

Firstly, Esure have two hats here. They are your insurer, and totally separately, they are also the other-party's insurer.

Your position should have been that you are claiming directly off the other-party's policy, and, in respect of your own policy you are only making a notification of the incident, but not a claim (this is the correct procedure, even if the other-party happens to be insured by the same company as yourself).

Now, being a 3rd party to the others-party's policy (and nothing to do with the fact that it so-happens that you also have a separate policy with the same insurer), you are not bound by any T&C simply because you have are not signed-up to the other-party's policy.

Instead, you are entitled to full compensation from the other-party (in this case, via his insurer) for any proven financial damages caused to you by his actions. These include repairing your car (if commercially viable) or it's 'market value', cost of hire car (if the your car is not driveable), cost of travel to and from the garage, etc. The point I am trying to make is that your entitlement for compensation is totally unrelated to whatever are the T&Cs of your own policy (because you are not claiming off your own policy).

You are within your rights to reject the other-party's insurer valuation and offer. The fact that they told you that they were acting withing the Ombudsman guidelines are irrelevant, until you hear it from the Ombudsman itself. Their claim that prices of other similar cars on sale are not an indication of market valuation is pure fabrication.

What you should do is scan the private sale ads (not dealer or trade ads) on Autotrader, eBay, Gumtree, etc, for similar cars, in similar spec, in similar condition, with similar mileage, and similar service history (not easy, because as cars get older, the price variations can be considerable). Then, you need to remember that you are looking at asking price, the actual sale price will likely be a bit lower. And, you're actually looking at the lower price range, rather than at the upper or even at the average price, because the idea here is that 'you could buy another car like yours for £,£££', rather than what is the highest price you could have sold your car for. Also, look locally - on the premise that you need a suitable amount
to buy another car similar to yours, you can't really be expected to travel from (say) Wales to Scotland to buy it.

But, ultimately, the insurer's valuation might be fair. Keeping in mind that restitution means that you should be able to buy (privately) a similar car, and regardless of what you actually paid for yours, or how much you spent on it, or the amount of work you had to put into finding it in the first place.

But if you are certain that the insurer's valuation is too low - I.e., that you could not buy a similar car for the money they are offering - then stick to your guns and let the Ombudsman rule (if it came to that). But, if complaining to the Ombudsman, remember that the onus is on you to submit to the Ombudsman proof that you cannot buy a similar car for what has been offered, and also proof as to what is the lowest price that a similar car can be had for.

Good luck.

Thanks both for the informative info on this subject. I do agree that the value of a car is subjective, which makes it difficult to agree a value. My W210 was also written off (t-boned) and i was happy immediately with the first settlement figure with all things considered. This case however, it seems to be different. I've not heard of insurance companies sticking to their guns quite so much as in my case here, its very frustrating. I expected a bit of a low ball figure, but also expected them to not put up a great deal of a fight when arguing against it.
I feel "market value" is a bit of a general term in this case and that a car of similar age and specification as mine would easily be worth more than the value they have quoted. I will do a bit of searching around, as to be fair I have only looked on autotrader and i suspect there maybe more out there. There isn't many E320cdi's on the market with my mileage, as they are mostly bought as motorway cruisers. I don't know if that goes for or against me in this case. But I will present a case with similar age and mileage cars and see what they say. Although the last of its kind with that engine in, being a 2006 registered car alone, should impact the value compared with a similar car thats 2 years older?

Also, I need to speak to them in regard of getting the car inspected, I am currently still using it and want to make sure that I'm fully legal in doing so!!! You would of thought that they would tell me this also?!

 

[markjay]

Just to reiterate that you need to look only at ads for cars on private sale. Because, if you buy a car from a trader, it will come with statutory warranty, which is something that you don't have now, so it will in fact be betterment and therefore more than restitution.

Also, as mentioned, a small reduction from the advertised asking prices is reasonable, on the premise that cars often sell for less than the initial asking price.

It's not a problem if you only find prices for lesser cars, because you can establish a minimum baseline. For example, if you find asking prices for cars that have more mileage than yours, or are (say) one year older, or have lower spec, etc, you can still use these to show that your car should be worth at least that (though how much more it would actually be worth is a matter of opinion). So if you can demonstrate that lesser cars go for more than they are offering, than that's a start as well.

 

[Doodle]

For reference, I pushed back 2 times on the valuation on my A8 when it cooked itself. Every time they tried to claim "market value", I asked them to provide evidence of such a vehicle that I could purchase. Unsurprisingly that never materialised.

Sending out cheque in the manner they have done is one of their standard dirty tricks. Another is to claim they won't send you a cheque until you hand over the v5, which is also utter bollocks - the DVLA plainly state that you as the exiting owner should process the change of ownership yourself, and you'll only be doing that after you've been paid.

 

[markjay]

On the occasion that I had my car written-off by a third party, the third party's insurer made payment by bank transfer a couple of hours after agreeing the price over the phone (following 4 weeks of negotiations....).

They then sent me a letter in the post explaining what I should do with the V5C, the service book, and the spare key. Basically the car was to be sold to COPART (which also triggered the VED refund from the DVLA), and the documents sent to COPART in a pre-paid envelope they provided. The (unrepairable) car itself was already in the garage for assessment so in fact I never saw it again (COPART collected it directly), and I was driving a rental provided by the insurer and which I had to hand back the following day after receipt of payment.

In short, once the price was agreed, thing moved-on very quickly and efficiently.

 

[coneybiller]

Well just as an update, I phoned them yesterday and asked for an email so that I can provide proof to support my appeal. I then scoured the web and found 3 different examples of cars from private sellers that were all worth more than they were offering (that took a while to find, as most are traders!). I also added a letter of complaint to the email and expressed my concerns and frustrations on the whole process.

Today I've received a phone call and they have upped the valuation of the car from £2800 to £3175 and said that is the absolute maximum they are willing to go with the valuation. I've accepted this and will await the cheque in the post. It's not quite what I was hoping for, but as it was pointed out to be by members here, they were never going to offer what I had paid in the first place! I'm relatively happy with new valuation, as I feel its adequate and represents enough money for me to fix it up and move on.

Thanks for the advice, I'm not sure I would have thought of actually sending them adverts of cars for sale. I think it proved affective in tis situation!

Regards

Ben

Edit:
I forgot to ask them if i require an inspection before being able to use the car again, however, a quick google search reveals that a Cat N car does not require a new MoT. My insurance is unaffected as I have not claimed on my own policy, so therefore, my car is above board and fully road legal

 

[mioba]

Glad you got somewhere,

The problem with older mercs which we all know depreciate like hell, if you are in any hit like you had it will be a write off since ins. companies (read you policy) use genuine parts. as we know merc parts are not cheap. so the car is a write off. Cost of repair is more than the value.

I skidded on ice in my w220 years ago, front bumber, both front wings, an alloy, a tyre, a headlamp and some suspension parts.

The car was 12 years old, owned from new with 48k on the clock, ins. co wrote it off for peanuts (but thats about the value), its a hard swallow, and thats where you need to leave the emotion behind.

After some man maths. I got the car from them, sourced the parts myself from breakers and MB (using thier adjuster breakdown of whats needed). my MB indy put it all back together and in the end I was actually a few K in pocket. We even realised some of the parts that the adjuster had accounted for were not needed (2 airmatic struts - I still have the bleeders sat in my garage brand new).

So goes to show!