Advanced driver: are you one?

[del320]

My posting was based on 'normal' driving, not emergency driving. You come out with me and you'll see all the observation, planning and smoothness you could possibly want I just get there a bit quicker

Nothing like blowing your own trumpet JB!

I’m at a bit of a loss to understand the point of your argument. I’m no advanced driver but you will recall that last year Pontoneer and I were given a demonstration of police pursuit driving. The main points I took from the experience were the importance of anticipation, observation and correct positioning of the vehicle relative to other road-users and prevailing conditions. (Which I knew anyway).

Whilst fully appreciating that the technical style of driving was a material aspect of the job in hand, it bore no relevance to “social, domestic and commuting” requirements of 99% of forum members.

Thus, travelling at over 100mph in 3rd gear, left foot braking and a bit of opposite lock, whilst adhering to the three principals above, show enormous technical skills but take little account of passengers’ comfort or nerves.

My pal is a very competent driver, but is an enthusiastic user of the brakes and gears. When he’s at the wheel, his passengers sit there like nodding dogs - and you can witness his style of driving on the roads day and daily.

I pay entirely for my petrol, tyres and brake pads and will continue to approach hazards or potential hold-ups by easing off at the earliest opportunity with minimal reliance on brakes (although my foot will be hovering over the pedal). As often as not, my passengers tend to nod off - and I can still turn in some remarkable point-to-point journey times.

45 years of accident-free motoring (trumpet-blowing?) has taught me that cerebral skills are more important than mere technical skills.

 

[JumboBeef]

Nothing like blowing your own trumpet JB!

If don't, who will blow it for me?

I’m at a bit of a loss to understand the point of your argument. I’m no advanced driver but you will recall that last year Pontoneer and I were given a demonstration of police pursuit driving. The main points I took from the experience were the importance of anticipation, observation and correct positioning of the vehicle relative to other road-users and prevailing conditions. (Which I knew anyway).

Whilst fully appreciating that the technical style of driving was a material aspect of the job in hand, it bore no relevance to “social, domestic and commuting” requirements of 99% of forum members.

Thus, travelling at over 100mph in 3rd gear, left foot braking and a bit of opposite lock, whilst adhering to the three principals above, show enormous technical skills but take little account of passengers’ comfort or nerves.

I think you have misunderstood me. I am talking about 'normal' driving, but using the brakes as required (come with me on an emergency drive in a four tonne ambulance: that's a different matter). IMHO, left foot braking and opposite lock have a place on the racetrack where tenth's of a second count, but not on the roads under any circumstances. Do the police really teach to drive using these techniques?

My pal is a very competent driver, but is an enthusiastic user of the brakes and gears. When he’s at the wheel, his passengers sit there like nodding dogs - and you can witness his style of driving on the roads day and daily.

I agree: and you may recall I said 'firm' use of the brakes, not harsh. Same goes for acceleration.

I pay entirely for my petrol, tyres and brake pads and will continue to approach hazards or potential hold-ups by easing off at the earliest opportunity with minimal reliance on brakes (although my foot will be hovering over the pedal). As often as not, my passengers tend to nod off - and I can still turn in some remarkable point-to-point journey times.

45 years of accident-free motoring (trumpet-blowing?) has taught me that cerebral skills are more important than mere technical skills.

As I said, there are differences between different advanced driving styles. You would also nod off in my car, whilst I firmly but smoothly use the brakes as required.

 

[219]

Whilst I do see both positions : I can fully accept and agree with JB's point that it is possible to brake powerfully and progressively ; at the same time as preferring myself to adopt a more relaxed and economic driving style on most normal journeys .

I used to drive in a much more 'spirited' manner - accelerating rapidly up to the NSL on leaving a built up area ; making 'maximum progress' across country ; accelerating along straights , braking on the approach to bends , adopting cornering positions , powering the car through bends , progressive braking from high speeds - all within the limits of driving at speeds that were safe for the conditions and the distance I could see to be clear . I 'can' drive progressively and smoothly too , if I want to , I just choose to drive a little more sedately these days - especially with SWMBO , mum-in-law & baby on board !

While all of the above can be 'fun' for an enthusiastic driver , I have learned over the years that 'pressing on' , overtaking at every safe opportunity etc , actually does not save all that much on journey times - so , unless a genuine emergency journey where every second really does count , it is just not worth it in terms of fuel , wear & tear to the car , my stress levels , and level of risk to self and others .

Incidentally , I left-foot-brake all the time if driving automatic : I just don't see the point of having two perfectly good feet on the end of my legs and using only one - that would be a bit like an able-bodied person hopping down the street on one foot ! I don't particularly use rally-techniques - it is just that in my mind if I have two feet and two pedals in front of them , it is logical to use both . I equally have no problem whatsoever transitioning from manual to automatic and vice versa ( in a manual I normally drive as I imagine most folks do - right foot for brake & accelerator , left for clutch ) ; I don't even think about it and just drive the way I do , but then I've been doing it for a long time .

 

[flango]

Hi, wonder if I may say my ha'penny's worth.

I've never read so much BS in my life. As if any one has ever tried driving at 30 mph anyway. (except for those that do it in a 60 limit)

Speak for yourself some of us ALWAYS obey 30 mph limits and below as it is where most accidents and pedestrian casualties occur usually children.

But not braking to avoid unbalancing the car, is just bloody dangerous.
What about brake lights? How would the person behind know what your doing? (OR GOING TO DO)

Its not about the person behind you its about you and self preservation, if you were that concerned about the car behind as *** rightly pointed out just touch the pedal to illuminate the brake lights doesn't mean you have to actually brake that way you warn others

If your talking about advanced driving, its simple things like this to consider.

Cars are 'slightly' more stable under light acceleration because the weight is transfered to the rear wheels, braking its toward the front, braking on a corner it is mostly on the one front wheel. Thats why you brake before a corner.

There would be very little point in braking after the corner surely?

If anyone wants proper advice, talk to a proper driving instructor. The ones that are trained for the Dept for Transport.

You are talking to one I teach Police class one drivers, diplomatic protection squad drivers, royal protection squad drivers and other security services. As a civilian instructor I hold the highest qualification it is possible to get, Without disrespecting ADI's they are good for learner drivers but can they teach you a j turn or how to make progress at high speed? NO beacuse that is not what they are trained for and I should know been there and done that got the T shirt as they say.

Would upset so many people to know the training required and skills needed.

I agree but its training and skills used to teach the basic driving functions and not advanced driving

Because they mostly teach learners, people underestimate them. And foolishly look elsewhere.

Look elswhere for what an Approved advanced driving instructor? as believe it or not there are a few of us about

My 2p worth above but if you want advanced driving tuition leave it to the professionals, RoSPA, IAM etc they know what they are doing, if you really want to hone your skills then look for an advanced defensive driving instructor who will teach you all you want to know.

So respectfully some of us are well qualified to speak on the subject of advanced driving and are happy to pass that knowledge on to other members giving "Proper" advice

 

[flango]

Do the police really teach to drive using these techniques?
.

Of course, bear in mind now that most traffic cars do not have a clutch usually dsg type gearboxes as on the EVO and others. Why would you only use one foot when you have 2 perfectly good ones. Also left foot braking and accelerating at the same time is a good way of re stabilising the car in high speed manouvres. Wouldn't want to try it in a 4 tonne ambulance but in a 400 bhp Mitsubishi EVO in pursuit on country lanes its perfectly acceptable.

 

[st4]

Of course, bear in mind now that most traffic cars do not have a clutch usually dsg type gearboxes as on the EVO and others. Why would you only use one foot when you have 2 perfectly good ones. Also left foot braking and accelerating at the same time is a good way of re stabilising the car in high speed manouvres. Wouldn't want to try it in a 4 tonne ambulance but in a 400 bhp Mitsubishi EVO in pursuit on country lanes its perfectly acceptable.

Do the police mod the cars to allow similtaneous application of both brake and throttle? BMWs, VAG and MB disable the throttle when the brake is applied so the left foot brake is a largely redundant technique.

I sometimes use it, simply as it might be quciker to use the left foot than to transfer right foot from accelerator to brake, however, on the road, that shouldnt be an issue as you should have seen the hazard to make such movement uneccessary.

 

[flango]

Do the police mod the cars to allow similtaneous application of both brake and throttle? BMWs, VAG and MB disable the throttle when the brake is applied so the left foot brake is a largely redundant technique.

I sometimes use it, simply as it might be quciker to use the left foot than to transfer right foot from accelerator to brake, however, on the road, that shouldnt be an issue as you should have seen the hazard to make such movement uneccessary.

Some forces do, so both pedals are always "live" theres a few other fuctions on there that also have to be made permanly live. When we visited South Yorkshire Police Traffic last year they confirmed their EVO VIIII and X's are set up to full rally spec and now having been out in one of their EVO X's I can confirm they are.

Some forces simply don't bother and just run the cars exactly as they come from the factory Volvo T5's and BMW 535d and 335d are usually not modified.

Also depends on the crime rate in the particular area and if the force need very quick response cars, Humberside were using Cosworths and Imprezas long before other forces due to the road crime in the area

 

[p1ssdoffuser]

My 2p worth above but if you want advanced driving tuition leave it to the professionals, RoSPA, IAM etc they know what they are doing, if you really want to hone your skills then look for an advanced defensive driving instructor who will teach you all you want to know.

So respectfully some of us are well qualified to speak on the subject of advanced driving and are happy to pass that knowledge on to other members giving "Proper" advice

I think the point IS, that to speak or brag about a skill and then use it out of context is misleading and dangerous. Your speaking of police advanced driving skills and techniques some of which to apply them to everyday 'normal' driving is as dangerous and naive as a F1 driver teaching someone how to drive past a school in a busy town centre. For one road positioning, speed on approach to junctions, the difference between minor to major and vice versa, the correct use of roundabouts ar all wildly different for pursuit, advanced or general road driving conforming to to the highway Code or the Dept of Transports manual- Driving. Certainly corporate police officers looking for a quick penalty charge.
As for the claim 'Driving Instructors' are good only for learners shows utter arogance and naivety. (no wonder the police have such a bad safety record)
Driving instructors are just that driving INSTRUCTORS, legal, experienced and APPROVED to teach, something rospa and IAM instructors unless they are also adi's are not. They can only coach, and there is a difference.

 

[flango]

I think the point IS, that to speak or brag about a skill and then use it out of context is misleading and dangerous. Your speaking of police advanced driving skills and techniques some of which to apply them to everyday 'normal' driving is as dangerous and naive as a F1 driver teaching someone how to drive past a school in a busy town centre. For one road positioning, speed on approach to junctions, the difference between minor to major and vice versa, the correct use of roundabouts ar all wildly different for pursuit, advanced or general road driving conforming to to the highway Code or the Dept of Transports manual- Driving. Certainly corporate police officers looking for a quick penalty charge.
As for the claim 'Driving Instructors' are good only for learners shows utter arogance and naivety. (no wonder the police have such a bad safety record)
Driving instructors are just that driving INSTRUCTORS, legal and APPROVED to teach, something rospa and IAM instructors unless they are also adi's. They can only coach, and there is a difference.
If they were they would know the stringent training and driving test needed.

Dont want to get into conflict here but all Rospa Instructors are also Class 1 police driver instructors registered with the home office as such (much higher than ADI and dept of transport) IAM I agree usually retired officers and more of a club than an institute and can only coach.

All RoSPA instructors and Advanced Driving Instructors have to resit their driving test in full every 3 years including the basics such as parallel parking etc we all go through it so are very aware how much training goes into it.

My post was not related to police advanced driving skills it was related to general advanced driving, pursuit training is something altogether different and I'm not bragging just merely pointing out I am very well qualified to speak on the subject having honed my skills and driver training and instruction over the last 30 years.

I show no arrogance to ADI's and have the ultimate respect for them but asking an ADI to teach you advanced driving is like asking a glider pilot to teach you to fly a jet aircraft, chalk and cheese

You are very much entitled to your own opinions and are free to ignore mine if you wish to do so, the choice is entirely yours.

 

[Kinky]

I'm one

Assuming we're still looking at who is!

 

[JumboBeef]

Do the police really teach to drive using these techniques?

Of course, bear in mind now that most traffic cars do not have a clutch usually dsg type gearboxes as on the EVO and others. Why would you only use one foot when you have 2 perfectly good ones. Also left foot braking and accelerating at the same time is a good way of re stabilising the car in high speed manouvres. Wouldn't want to try it in a 4 tonne ambulance but in a 400 bhp Mitsubishi EVO in pursuit on country lanes its perfectly acceptable.

I was more refering to the use of opposite lock on a drive.

I have spent my time on a skid pan, learning all about how to control skids and, more importantly, how to avoid them in the first place.

I can't find the original quote in this thread but from memory it was along the lines of a police driver showing how good he was, complete with heel-toe and opposite lock.

Using opposite lock to control a skid is a skill we all need but I would say that the police driver was either a poor driver, or pushing it too far, to put the car into a skid in the first place. I would be......shocked.........if the police taught that you should push a car so fast that using opposite lock on a public road is an acceptable way of making progress.

 

[del320]

I wouldn't get too exerted over the reference to "opposite-lock"

I used the term here and in the original Tullieallan thread but did not intend to infer that the driver made progress by continually looking out of the side windows.

As an experienced driver with a sensitive backside (settle down ) I was aware on several occasions (and Pontoneer will confirm) that the rear wheels stepped out slightly and described a radius equal to or greater than the front wheels.

A deft touch of opposite lock was therefore required.

 

[219]

Using opposite lock to control a skid is a skill we all need but I would say that the police driver was either a poor driver, or pushing it too far, to put the car into a skid in the first place. I would be......shocked.........if the police taught that you should push a car so fast that using opposite lock on a public road is an acceptable way of making progress.

Yes , the original quote was by DEL 320 who accompanied me on that particular drive .

I would have to say that the driver was highly skilled but , IMHO , pushing it too far for the purpose of 'putting on a show' . I have been on many high speed drives in traffic cars , but this was the one and only time I ever felt uneasy . Being in the back seat , I could not see whether the driver was left foot braking or not , but I could sense 'by the seat of my pants' that the back end was drifting at times and 'right on the limit' .

The first time it happened , we were approaching a left hand bend , opposite a quarry entrance , and the road conditions were wet , slightly greasy in places - then there were mud deposits where trucks had left this quarry - we approached the bend at circa 100mph ( can't remember exactly ) didn't slow much , and as the car went in to the bend I could feel the back end slide out slightly and the driver correct the slide . His commentary was something to the effect of noting the conditions and that he would 'exercise caution' on the subsequent bends - but we still continued at something like 90ish in the wet , which I personally felt was too fast for the conditions .

I did comment during the debrief , something to the effect that I would not have driven that fast in my own car , but left it at that . I should add that I know that road particularly well , being in the area where I grew up and , as a young lad , when I had my 5 speed manual 280E , I used to tear up and down those roads ( in good conditions ) at speeds even higher than the ones on this drive , but even back then I don't think I would have attempted these speeds in the wet .

I would have to summarise by saying that I think the guy was just pushing it slightly too far and that I felt 'uneasy' rather than scared ( perhaps I'm just not a good passenger ; there are very few drivers I'm completely at ease sitting beside and don't feel the need to constantly be keeping an eye on their drivig ) - I don't think for a minute he was going to lose it completely , nor were there any members of the public in proximity to the bends where it got a bit slippy ( we had good views across fields and could see what was/wasn't coming the other way ) .

 

[219]

I see DEL beat me to it while I was typing !

 

[JumboBeef]

Well, it seems we all agree then

Opposite lock is a good way of controlling a skid, but the skid wouldn't have happened in the first place if the driver had driven within their/the car's limits.

 

[flango]

Well, it seems we all agree then

Opposite lock is a good way of controlling a skid, but the skid wouldn't have happened in the first place if the driver had driven within their/the car's limits.

Sorry just read your other post as well, totally agree with you all. I guess the Police driver at Tuliallen was just showboating a bit with guests on board. Opposite lock is is a great technique in a skid but the occasions you actually need it would be very limited. As you say drive within the limits and its fine only instance I can think of is if you got caught out by oil or diesel on the road which put you into a skid.

 

[219]

As you say drive within the limits and its fine only instance I can think of is if you got caught out by oil or diesel on the road which put you into a skid.

Yes - got caught out by that one last week - on my way home from work , after dark , roads wet but otherwise OK , I was coming out of Stewarton in North Ayrshire , heading over to Dunlop - felt the van 'twitch' on this right hand bend at about 40 ish and instictively corrected for it , then noticed the gap in the hedge just after the bend with fresh looking police tape across it - I guess someone else had gone off at the same spot not long before .

 

[oorjim2]

I’m an ADI if that counts for any thing.



Jim.

 

[219]

How did you go about getting your ADI qualification , Jim ?

 

[oorjim2]

Done the course through Red.


Jim