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Dieselman
Banned
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2003
- Messages
- 34,206
- Car
- Peugeot 403 Convertible
No.!
Why should it be.?
Why should it be.?
nick mercedes
MB Enthusiast
Build quality is in line with the lesser models.
hawk20
MB Enthusiast
I am surprised by the answers so far. Maybe some AMG owners will chime in.
The spec is often higher in many different respects. The engine is hand built, the gearbox may be a special AMG one. The seats are completely different as are the wheels, often the brakes and so on and so on. So in numerous respects the car is very different, much dearer and in many respects to a higher spec.
But there are many common parts too including the bodywork. Having said that, I have the standard 320cdi S class and I find the build quality on that as high as I could possibly wish -- so far anyway.
The spec is often higher in many different respects. The engine is hand built, the gearbox may be a special AMG one. The seats are completely different as are the wheels, often the brakes and so on and so on. So in numerous respects the car is very different, much dearer and in many respects to a higher spec.
But there are many common parts too including the bodywork. Having said that, I have the standard 320cdi S class and I find the build quality on that as high as I could possibly wish -- so far anyway.
Brett
Active Member
Not had a major issue with mine (touch wood) but I wouldn't say it is any more or less reliable that the many other Mercs I've had. All the usual comments apply i.e. get it checked out, ensure it has a full history, trust your gut instincts and WALK AWAY if it doesn't feel right.
No way,
They build them all equal the assembly is done by the same people on the same lines from the cheapest model in the class to the most expensive.
In regards to hawk's comments i agree 100% that stuff is different but that does not mean its of higher quality, in most cases the materials used are the same as are the suppliers and most of the additions to the standard spec of AMG's are options on non-AMG models I'm not aware of many real AMG only goodies.
About the whole hand-built thing i don't see that as an advantage to be honest don't get me wrong its a selling point but thats about it, if somebody can prove to me that an engine built by a man is superior to an engine assembled by a machine i will happy eat my words but the way i see it the human built engine is going to have more variables than the machine built unit, not that i see any more AMG models in the shop then i do standards or models from other tuners but i know the machine assembled unit is going to leave the factory a carbon copy of the unit in front of it.
If hand-assembly really made a difference everybody would be doing it, at the end of the day Lusso your buying a Mercedes-Benz and it is what it is if you need higher quality i would suggest a Black Series model or speaking to a tuner who will be happy to produce a bespoke setup for you (Brabus, Kleeman and so on) and both of those options increase the price tag big style.
They build them all equal the assembly is done by the same people on the same lines from the cheapest model in the class to the most expensive.
In regards to hawk's comments i agree 100% that stuff is different but that does not mean its of higher quality, in most cases the materials used are the same as are the suppliers and most of the additions to the standard spec of AMG's are options on non-AMG models I'm not aware of many real AMG only goodies.
About the whole hand-built thing i don't see that as an advantage to be honest don't get me wrong its a selling point but thats about it, if somebody can prove to me that an engine built by a man is superior to an engine assembled by a machine i will happy eat my words but the way i see it the human built engine is going to have more variables than the machine built unit, not that i see any more AMG models in the shop then i do standards or models from other tuners but i know the machine assembled unit is going to leave the factory a carbon copy of the unit in front of it.
If hand-assembly really made a difference everybody would be doing it, at the end of the day Lusso your buying a Mercedes-Benz and it is what it is if you need higher quality i would suggest a Black Series model or speaking to a tuner who will be happy to produce a bespoke setup for you (Brabus, Kleeman and so on) and both of those options increase the price tag big style.
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mb240
Active Member
I thought AMG make around 20,000 engines per year. I don't know how long it takes the bloke to assemble the engine though. I remember reading somewhere that not all of the new models are hand-assembled, but I can't find the reference. I wouldn't mind being able to simply buy one of the newer engines (i.e, the M156 engine or one of the forced induction M113s) and plonk it in my one, but I would say the cost would make it not worth it (probably €40-50k for the engine?).
munichlegend
Member
I've just read the 221 page comprehensive hardback "AMG Reaching for the stars". It's made me appreciate just how unique each & every AMG is.
To quote from the 'Birthplace of the unique' chapter:
"Each individual engine is assembled by just one fitter, who does everything from inserting the crankshaft to filling the oil. So one person bears the entire responsibility - this is known as 'AMG Manufaktur' or 'one man, one engine'. Since each technician is responsible for a complete unit comprising up to 570 individual parts, it is a matter of honour for the craftsman, whose name is ultimately affixed to the engine block.
It is in the individualisation of vehicles & the realisation of even the most unusual customer requests that the true origins and raison d'etre of the AMG Manufaktur lie. For one thing every AMG engine is assembled by hand in Affalterbach. For another each engine is then placed into a unique vehicle, which is itself also built by hand.
There's a contemplative quality to the work going on in the engine assembly area. It's very quiet; the only sound is a subdued background hum. Large windows provide plenty of daylight to work by. There's not a bolt to be seen on the immaculately clean white tiled floor and quite definitely no cigarette ends. This could be a food hall as much as a workshop.
Unlike large DaimlerChrysler production locations, AMG has no assembly line. This form of engine production has been adopted from motor racing & has proved successful for small exclusive production runs.
The fitter works through the various stages of assembly at his own speed, following a sort of 'U' shaped route from work station to work station, pulling his engine on a trolley with him. As he moves around he finds the tools he needs, such as an electric screwdriver, hanging neatly from the ceiling.
An electronic system, the 'AMG Tracer' tracks each stage, recording it and showing progress on a monitor. It reduces the chance of forgetting a bolt etc. Once the engine fitter has been through all ten work stations to reach the end of the 'U', he gives the engine its identity by attaching his personal plate & in a last step, adding the oil.
In the case of the new 6.3 litre engine, which is made up of 480 individual parts, 3 hours will have passed by this time, or 5 or 6 for the V12 engine with its 570 parts.
Before the completed engine leaves the production area, it is examined on what is known as a 'cold test bed' . No fuel is used. Tests are conducted on the camshaft & manifold control; on mechanical function, injection & compression & every result meticulously documented.
Production capacity is around 120 to 130 engines per day. Each year some 25,000 AMG engines are sent to often distant Mercedes production locations - to Sindelfingen & Bremen in Germany, Graz in Austria, Tuscaloosa in USA, Woking in England (SLR) or South Africa.
Next door to the engine production is the 'Performance Studio'. This is where selected AMG engines are placed into their homes or to put it another way, where each dream on wheels, is given its heart & all the special features requested by wealthy, demanding & sometimes extravagant AMG customers around the world.
Work in the Performance Studio doesn't appear to follow a continous & logical sequence of steps, as it does in engine production. This is simply not possible here, because customers' requirements often involve identifying complex solutions for both bodywork & interior, which are worked on,as a team by small specialist groups.
Nevertheless, craftmanship & meticulous precision work are as highly prized in the Performance Studio as they are in engine Manufaktur. Watching the experts at work soon makes it clear that every customer is, to a certain extent, also unique & each AMG Mercedes "bespoke" in terms of comfort, equipment, colour & any other special requirements.
Some extravagant special requests include, exterior paintwork in shades of pink to match a girlfriend's lipstick, gold plated interior trim or fur upholstery. There was even a man from Malaysia who ordered thirty five SLK 55 AMGs so that he could organise private races for friends on his own motor racing circuit"
..........................................................................................
OK perhaps I'm biased owning an E55 AMG Estate. However, as far as I'm concerned this car has real character, unlike, (as Wolfgang Peters, a motoring journalist, puts it) "so many mass produced, high grade cars that roll off the production line with the same degree of ceremony as eggs leaving a battery farm. The laws of large production numbers mean that small series production is no longer feasible leaving hardly any room for individuality".
As far as build quality is concerned, I have previously owned BMW M5s (e34 & e39), Audi S2 & this car beats them all. I have had no problems whatsoever & the engine just does not burn any oil, unlike my M5 e39, surely a sign of a well built (handbuilt remember) engine with very tight tolerances.
To quote from the 'Birthplace of the unique' chapter:
"Each individual engine is assembled by just one fitter, who does everything from inserting the crankshaft to filling the oil. So one person bears the entire responsibility - this is known as 'AMG Manufaktur' or 'one man, one engine'. Since each technician is responsible for a complete unit comprising up to 570 individual parts, it is a matter of honour for the craftsman, whose name is ultimately affixed to the engine block.
It is in the individualisation of vehicles & the realisation of even the most unusual customer requests that the true origins and raison d'etre of the AMG Manufaktur lie. For one thing every AMG engine is assembled by hand in Affalterbach. For another each engine is then placed into a unique vehicle, which is itself also built by hand.
There's a contemplative quality to the work going on in the engine assembly area. It's very quiet; the only sound is a subdued background hum. Large windows provide plenty of daylight to work by. There's not a bolt to be seen on the immaculately clean white tiled floor and quite definitely no cigarette ends. This could be a food hall as much as a workshop.
Unlike large DaimlerChrysler production locations, AMG has no assembly line. This form of engine production has been adopted from motor racing & has proved successful for small exclusive production runs.
The fitter works through the various stages of assembly at his own speed, following a sort of 'U' shaped route from work station to work station, pulling his engine on a trolley with him. As he moves around he finds the tools he needs, such as an electric screwdriver, hanging neatly from the ceiling.
An electronic system, the 'AMG Tracer' tracks each stage, recording it and showing progress on a monitor. It reduces the chance of forgetting a bolt etc. Once the engine fitter has been through all ten work stations to reach the end of the 'U', he gives the engine its identity by attaching his personal plate & in a last step, adding the oil.
In the case of the new 6.3 litre engine, which is made up of 480 individual parts, 3 hours will have passed by this time, or 5 or 6 for the V12 engine with its 570 parts.
Before the completed engine leaves the production area, it is examined on what is known as a 'cold test bed' . No fuel is used. Tests are conducted on the camshaft & manifold control; on mechanical function, injection & compression & every result meticulously documented.
Production capacity is around 120 to 130 engines per day. Each year some 25,000 AMG engines are sent to often distant Mercedes production locations - to Sindelfingen & Bremen in Germany, Graz in Austria, Tuscaloosa in USA, Woking in England (SLR) or South Africa.
Next door to the engine production is the 'Performance Studio'. This is where selected AMG engines are placed into their homes or to put it another way, where each dream on wheels, is given its heart & all the special features requested by wealthy, demanding & sometimes extravagant AMG customers around the world.
Work in the Performance Studio doesn't appear to follow a continous & logical sequence of steps, as it does in engine production. This is simply not possible here, because customers' requirements often involve identifying complex solutions for both bodywork & interior, which are worked on,as a team by small specialist groups.
Nevertheless, craftmanship & meticulous precision work are as highly prized in the Performance Studio as they are in engine Manufaktur. Watching the experts at work soon makes it clear that every customer is, to a certain extent, also unique & each AMG Mercedes "bespoke" in terms of comfort, equipment, colour & any other special requirements.
Some extravagant special requests include, exterior paintwork in shades of pink to match a girlfriend's lipstick, gold plated interior trim or fur upholstery. There was even a man from Malaysia who ordered thirty five SLK 55 AMGs so that he could organise private races for friends on his own motor racing circuit"
..........................................................................................
OK perhaps I'm biased owning an E55 AMG Estate. However, as far as I'm concerned this car has real character, unlike, (as Wolfgang Peters, a motoring journalist, puts it) "so many mass produced, high grade cars that roll off the production line with the same degree of ceremony as eggs leaving a battery farm. The laws of large production numbers mean that small series production is no longer feasible leaving hardly any room for individuality".
As far as build quality is concerned, I have previously owned BMW M5s (e34 & e39), Audi S2 & this car beats them all. I have had no problems whatsoever & the engine just does not burn any oil, unlike my M5 e39, surely a sign of a well built (handbuilt remember) engine with very tight tolerances.
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I'm astonished the part counts are that low.
munichlegend
Member
Yes and I'm amazed they can build an engine in just 3 hours. Although according to one of the technicians, they can take up to 6 hours per engine, if they wish.There is no great rush to finish the job asap/enormous time pressures. I want to work there
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2005
- Messages
- 27,605
- Location
- Mittel England
- Car
- Smart ForFour AMG Black Series Night Edition Premium Plus 125 Powered by Brabus
I wondered whether you are in any way connected to the Munich Legends BMW specialist?
GrahamC230K
MB Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2002
- Messages
- 9,755
- Car
- Audi A3 & S4 quattro
Location is right.
Used to drive past and try not to stop!
Used to drive past and try not to stop!
munichlegend
Member
Only connection is that I used to own 1 or 2 BMW e34's that were serviced by them.
Chris
glojo
Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Yes some AMG's are higher specced than there lesser powered counterparts but all the options are identical, excluding of course those that have the AMG badge.
Put our 320CDI estate alongside a 55AMG and would the AMG have more, or better options?
The AMG is a great power unit and I for one am NOT criticising it.
John
Put our 320CDI estate alongside a 55AMG and would the AMG have more, or better options?
The AMG is a great power unit and I for one am NOT criticising it.
John
munichlegend
Member
Why would a machine-assembled engine burn more oil than a hand-assembled one?
Good question, I'm no engineer, I'm just reporting my personal experiences with a hand built (E55) vs a machine built (M5 e39) engine.
I've owned my E55 since June '07 & I previously owned a M5 e39. Both cars were/are my daily drivers for work & pleasure, The M5's oil needed fairly constant topping up, with probably 1 litre per month on average, I guess. Whereas the E55's oil level on the dipstick just doesn't move. Just as well given price of Mobil 1
hawk20
MB Enthusiast
Great postings MunichLegend. Lovely to read and lovely to know that engines like a Rolex still exist.
munichlegend
Member
Thanks Hawk20. Must say very happy with E55. Probably keep it for 3 to 4 years, like the M5 before it.
