Another MSL first and maybe just in the nick of time!!

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Jim G

Active Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2014
Messages
361
Location
Durham
Car
Weistec Supercharged E63
I was at MSL again today for some upgrade work namely SLS valve buckets, ARP Cam phaser bolts and ARP head studs.

A lot of fiddly work especially resetting the timing and to get it spot on, hats off to Adrian who had it spot on with the first attempt.

But all in all a good days works just to put my mind at ease, now I was pretty sceptical with regards to the head bolts issue with so little failures for the number of units out there I was in 2 minds to go ahead, but with the level of power I run I aired on the side of caution.

Now I'm not sure if its age or because of the stress my modified engine puts on the head bolts but my cars up to 23000 miles and is 4 years old its done approx. 2000 miles on the supercharger and very few on the Nos so I was quite alarmed at the level of corrosion on the head bolts, it is easy to see how they fail!!!:eek::eek:

As for the phaser bolts the new ARP ones are stronger than the stock ones but there were no visible signs of excessive wear, damage or corrosion on the existing bolts and the same for the valve buckets but those head bolts were really something else.

Hats off and another BIG thank you from me to MSL, who with the help of forum members keep pushing envelopes, experimenting and getting ever closer to results that Acid and the team strive for :thumb:

Pics below:

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IMG_1022_zps21ee5685.jpg Photo by Jimmy-Guy | Photobucket

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These are a selection of the existing head bolts some were not as bad as these but the majority were similar.

The head bolts were replaced with the ARP head studs by changing one at a time and torqueing down before moving on.
 
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Scary....glad mine is next in line to have the studs fitted.
 
Scary....glad mine is next in line to have the studs fitted.

Tell me about it mate, I honestly wasn't expecting that when we took them out, wouldn't like to think how long they would've lasted if I'd left them.

Thanks to you mate I ended up getting them done :thumb:

Phaser bolts and valve buckets were fine but for the money and as the covers were off are I suppose their worth doing.
 
Love your car Jimmy.

Cheers John :thumb:

BTW thanks for the help yesterday John with my little problem :D that could have been VERY VERY embarrassing next week :D:D:D:D

I would have looked like a right Moby :D
 
Do they not replace the cylinder head gaskets when the old head bolts are removed?
 
Cheers John :thumb:

BTW thanks for the help yesterday John with my little problem :D that could have been VERY VERY embarrassing next week :D:D:D:D

I would have looked like a right Moby :D

No worries mate ;) :D
 
Will said:
Do they not replace the cylinder head gaskets when the old head bolts are removed?
I think they remove bolt by bolt .
If was me I would also replace the head gasket , they are not that expensive and is 100% good job guaranteed :thumb:
 
No worries mate ;) :D

John are you OK to sort my embarrassing little problem out on Friday....same as Jims:eek:

Now thats got a few wondering what it is you do in your spare time :dk:
 
Hahahaha....good job John is there to help you out with your "Little" problems guys.....
Dr John is now open for Surgery :)
 
Wow.
That's quite extensive surgery indeed :eek:
Understand you doing it for piece of mind though, Jim :thumb:

Quick question, you seem to have a lot of oil that has collected around the head.
Is that normal?
I thought it was the job of the oil separator to prevent this kind of oil collection. :dk:

I'm no expert though, so please educate me if I've got it wrong.

:thumb:

EDIT:

I think I'm thinking of the inlet manifold :rolleyes:
 
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Do they not replace the cylinder head gaskets when the old head bolts are removed?


I think they remove bolt by bolt .
If was me I would also replace the head gasket , they are not that expensive and is 100% good job guaranteed :thumb:


You don't have to replace the gaskets although it is the norm, the existing bolts are torqued down and provide over 12000lbs clamping force so removing and re-torqueing a bolt at a time has no issues at all and has been done many a time over the pond and in Europe without any head gasket issues, we did do our research before attempting it :thumb:

I don't mind having mine experimented on, we'd never get any where without experimentation
 
Wow.
That's quite extensive surgery indeed :eek:
Understand you doing it for piece of mind though, Jim :thumb:

Quick question, you seem to have a lot of oil that has collected around the head.
Is that normal?
I thought it was the job of the oil separator to prevent this kind of oil collection. :dk:

I'm no expert though, so please educate me if I've got it wrong.

:thumb:


A lot of that oil Rash came from removing the old valve buckets, but when the covers where removed there was a little oil pooled, but these works were a learning curve for me also never attempted like this before, no one jumped around in panic so I assume its not alarming but I'm sure Acid or Sarim will provide a definitive answer.
 
Rash man - the cylinder head is covered in oil as per design - the oil lubricates the camshafts and moving valve gear.

The oil separator is generally fitted to the upper inside part of the cam covers to prevent too much oil from being drawn up into the intake side.

The oil you see in the pictures is quite normal, because of the engine's V design the heads are fitted to the main block at an angle hence oil sits there as it does.

I am still puzzled about how the head bolts were replaced. The tightening procedure for all Mercedes cylinder heads that I have seen have been to a specific torque value in a set sequence with further angle tightening in two stages again in a set sequence. I can't see how they can be replaced one at a time and I am uneasy at the thought of re-using the original cylinder head gaskets particularly on a forced induction engine like this?

Bearing in mind the labour to strip it all down again would it not make sense to replace the gaskets at the same time?

My other concern is that even slightly seeping cylinder head gaskets can cause more issues that just the gasket itself - corrosion and contamination of the mating surfaces, and obviously any contamination of coolant/oil systems etc.

Fair enough you say it's been done before but I'm not convinced it's good practice :)
 
A lot of that oil Rash came from removing the old valve buckets, but when the covers where removed there was a little oil pooled, but these works were a learning curve for me also never attempted like this before, no one jumped around in panic so I assume its not alarming but I'm sure Acid or Sarim will provide a definitive answer.

Rash man - the cylinder head is covered in oil as per design - the oil lubricates the camshafts and moving valve gear.

The oil separator is generally fitted to the upper inside part of the cam covers to prevent too much oil from being drawn up into the intake side.

The oil you see in the pictures is quite normal, because of the engine's V design the heads are fitted to the main block at an angle hence oil sits there as it does.

I am still puzzled about how the head bolts were replaced. The tightening procedure for all Mercedes cylinder heads that I have seen have been to a specific torque value in a set sequence with further angle tightening in two stages again in a set sequence. I can't see how they can be replaced one at a time and I am uneasy at the thought of re-using the original cylinder head gaskets particularly on a forced induction engine like this?

Bearing in mind the labour to strip it all down again would it not make sense to replace the gaskets at the same time?

My other concern is that even slightly seeping cylinder head gaskets can cause more issues that just the gasket itself - corrosion and contamination of the mating surfaces, and obviously any contamination of coolant/oil systems etc.

Fair enough you say it's been done before but I'm not convinced it's good practice :)

Cheers for the info guys.
I edited my previous post - it was indeed the intake manifold that I was thinking about.

:thumb:
 
Will said:
Rash man - the cylinder head is covered in oil as per design - the oil lubricates the camshafts and moving valve gear. The oil separator is generally fitted to the upper inside part of the cam covers to prevent too much oil from being drawn up into the intake side. The oil you see in the pictures is quite normal, because of the engine's V design the heads are fitted to the main block at an angle hence oil sits there as it does. I am still puzzled about how the head bolts were replaced. The tightening procedure for all Mercedes cylinder heads that I have seen have been to a specific torque value in a set sequence with further angle tightening in two stages again in a set sequence. I can't see how they can be replaced one at a time and I am uneasy at the thought of re-using the original cylinder head gaskets particularly on a forced induction engine like this? Bearing in mind the labour to strip it all down again would it not make sense to replace the gaskets at the same time? My other concern is that even slightly seeping cylinder head gaskets can cause more issues that just the gasket itself - corrosion and contamination of the mating surfaces, and obviously any contamination of coolant/oil systems etc. Fair enough you say it's been done before but I'm not convinced it's good practice :)
I agree with you will , make no sense not replacing them wile going trough all this process but Jim seams to be happy enough to do it so it's down to him .:thumb:
 
I don't mind having mine experimented on, we'd never get any where without experimentation

True Jim and if we didnt push the limits we would never find out what these cars are capable of....at some point it may go "pop" and then we know the limit :doh:
But hey what a laugh we will have had on the way.....:D
 
I agree with you will , make no sense not replacing them wile going trough all this process but Jim seams to be happy enough to do it so it's down to him .:thumb:

Mine is next to have the head bolts done, and i was also worried but as Jim said we did our research.
I asked AMG Newcastle how they would do it....after a conversation they all agreed if the head gasket was not already leaking then they would do it one at a time.
However, this topic could roll on for ever with differing opinions I know John (Developer) had his changed out by MB and they replaced the gasket. But that was with MB head bolts and not ARP studs.
 
I am still puzzled about how the head bolts were replaced. The tightening procedure for all Mercedes cylinder heads that I have seen have been to a specific torque value in a set sequence with further angle tightening in two stages again in a set sequence. I can't see how they can be replaced one at a time and I am uneasy at the thought of re-using the original cylinder head gaskets particularly on a forced induction engine like this?

Yes In an outwards rotating pattern, all we did was to completely remove one bolt and insert the new head stud and torque that stud completely using the 3 stage of torque settings until seated then move onto the next until all studs complete.

I completely understand the concerns not only raised by yourself but by others, I'm 100% confidant that this method works otherwise I'd not have gone down this route and by kicking it off would save a considerable cost not only for myself but others wanting the works done, now I've been wrong before and if wrong this time it could cost me a new engine :( and it'll be my own fault, but its the same with the blowers, water meth and Nos.

My other concern is that even slightly seeping cylinder head gaskets can cause more issues that just the gasket itself - corrosion and contamination of the mating surfaces, and obviously any contamination of coolant/oil systems etc.

With the existing pressure provided by the other 9 bolts the seal wouldn't budge.

Fair enough you say it's been done before but I'm not convinced it's good practice :)

Best practise is to replace the gasket I 100% completely agree :thumb:
 
I am still puzzled about how the head bolts were replaced. The tightening procedure for all Mercedes cylinder heads that I have seen have been to a specific torque value in a set sequence with further angle tightening in two stages again in a set sequence. I can't see how they can be replaced one at a time and I am uneasy at the thought of re-using the original cylinder head gaskets particularly on a forced induction engine like this?

The original bolts will be stretch bolts, hence the 3 stage tightning.
The ARPs are not stretch bolts so really just need torquing up and no further tightning.

I would normally have done the whole hog and replaced the gaskets, however I have also replaced ARPs one by one on on a few occasions on my own cars with high boost engines before with no ill affects.

-t
 

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