Another renting thread

[Piff]

I rent out a flat. The current tenant is in arrears with his rent.
Some time ago I had a similar tenant - full of promises but always behind with the rent. I ended up taking him to court and although I got a judgement against him I never saw a penny.
It cost me 2 sets of court fees before he dissappeared without a trace.

Current tenant is full of promises of payment which he doesn't deliver on.

The tenancy agreement has a clause along the lines of "if the rent or any part of it is in arrears by 14 days then the landlord may re-enter the property, re-possess & end the tenancy - but the landlord will not whilst the tenant is residing physically retake possession without first obtaining a court order"

The tenancy agreement is a fixed term which ends on 24th July.

I have just delivered a letter to the flat advising him of the arrears and asking how he proposes dealing with them. The response I expect to get is "I will be able to pay some later in the week & some more next week". I know this will not happen.

I haven't yet threatened eviction as that will guarantee that he doesn't pay a penny.

As the tenancy agreement is due to end later this month, do I have to give him any notice to get out or can I repossess on that day without any form of notice?

 

[davidjpowell]

You need to give the same notice as at any other time. Not up to speed on the resi stuff, but it still means going to court.

I believe to go to court on arrears there must be two months worth for a valid claim.

 

[Piff]

You need to give the same notice as at any other time. Not up to speed on the resi stuff, but it still means going to court.

I believe to go to court on arrears there must be two months worth for a valid claim.

About 9.5 weeks worth outstanding.

Obviously as soon as I give notice there will be no chance of receiving any more payments!

Not sure I understand your first sentance - I have to give notice - "and go to court?"

 

[Deleted member 11979]

Get the electricity water and gas cut off - old estate agents trick, works well for flats!

 

[davidjpowell]

duplicate

 

[davidjpowell]

It's residential. you can't seek possession without going to court, expiry or not. (I'm assuming your in England - no idea at all with resi in Scotland).

Rent Arrears & Evictions - The Best Way to Evict Assured Shorthold Tenants - LandlordZONE

There is an accelerated procedure, but you must give two months notice to the tenant.

 

[davidjpowell]

Get the electricity water and gas cut off - old estate agents trick, works well for flats!

Criminal. Jail and big fines. Not a good idea.

Follow the rules, but quickly.

 

[removed]

Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement usually (often?) comes with a Notice Required Possession on the day the tenancy ends, that way no further paperwork is required. If the tenancy is extended by mutual agreement (whether written or verbal) then the Notice is considered null and void. I know it's not really helpful in you current situation, but perhaps something for the future to consider. Whether a notice is actually required in your particular case, will depend on the wording of the agreement. You can always advise the tenant that a new term will have such-and-such changes (price go up, etc) so that he is not inclined to stay beyond the end date.

 

[davidjpowell]

Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement usually (often?) comes with a Notice Required Possession on the day the tenancy ends, that way no further paperwork is required. If the tenancy is extended by mutual agreement (whether written or verbal) then the Notice is considered null and void. I know it's not really helpful in you current situation, but perhaps something for the future to consider. Whether a notice is actually required in your particular case, will depend on the wording of the agreement. You can always advise the tenant that a new term will have such-and-such changes (price go up, etc) so that he is not inclined to stay beyond the end date.

I've heard of this trick, and as a tenant, it would not be the right way to start in my opinion.

It's hard enough with the scummy agents out there....

 

[Piff]

Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreement usually (often?) comes with a Notice Required Possession on the day the tenancy ends, that way no further paperwork is required. If the tenancy is extended by mutual agreement (whether written or verbal) then the Notice is considered null and void. I know it's not really helpful in you current situation, but perhaps something for the future to consider. Whether a notice is actually required in your particular case, will depend on the wording of the agreement. You can always advise the tenant that a new term will have such-and-such changes (price go up, etc) so that he is not inclined to stay beyond the end date.

Putting the price up will not help as he does not pay the current rent & is still resident.

the exact wording from the assured shorthold tenancy agreement is:-
4.9 Termination of the tenancy
(a) at the end of the tenancy to leave the furniture and effects in the rooms in which they were at the start of the tenancy
(b) at the end of the tenancy to deliver up to the Landlord the Property and all fixtures fittings and additions and the furniture and effects or any substituted furniture and effects professionally cleaned and tidy and in good repair, condition and decorative order in accordance with this agreement
(c) notwithstanding the fixed term to give to the Landlord a minimum of one months’ notice in the event that the Tenant does not wish to continue this agreement beyond the fixed term or wishes to determine any continuation of the term
(d) The Tenant cannot normally end this agreement before the end of the fixed term. However after the first three months of the fixed term, if the Tenant can find a suitable alternative tenant and providing this alternative tenant is acceptable to the Landlord (the Landlord’s approval not to be unreasonably withheld) the Tenant may give notice to end the tenancy on a date at least one month from the date that such approval is given by the Landlord. On the expiry of such notice, providing that the Tenant pays to the Landlord the reasonable expenses incurred by the Landlord in granting the necessary approval and in granting any new tenancy to the alternative tenant, the tenancy shall end.

5 Recovery of possession for breach of agreement
If the Rent or any part of it is in arrears for 14 days after it has become due (whether legally demanded or not) or if there is a breach of any of the obligations or agreements on the part of the Tenant the Landlord may re-enter upon the Property or any part in the name of the whole resuming possession on the furniture and effects and the tenancy shall absolutely determine but without prejudice to the other rights and remedies of the Landlord but the Landlord will not whilst the Tenant is residing in the Property physically retake possession without first obtaining a Court Order

Nothing in there that requires the landlord to give notice, but I know "the law" also has effect.

I've just been reading a article and (call me thick) but if I am reading it correctly under the section "seeking repossession", I am required to give the tenant 2 weeks notice for "ground 8" that I intend to seek a court order for repossession?

 

[davidjpowell]

Putting the price up will not help as he does not pay the current rent & is still resident.

the exact wording from the assured shorthold tenancy agreement is:-
4.9 Termination of the tenancy
(a) at the end of the tenancy to leave the furniture and effects in the rooms in which they were at the start of the tenancy
(b) at the end of the tenancy to deliver up to the Landlord the Property and all fixtures fittings and additions and the furniture and effects or any substituted furniture and effects professionally cleaned and tidy and in good repair, condition and decorative order in accordance with this agreement
(c) notwithstanding the fixed term to give to the Landlord a minimum of one months’ notice in the event that the Tenant does not wish to continue this agreement beyond the fixed term or wishes to determine any continuation of the term
(d) The Tenant cannot normally end this agreement before the end of the fixed term. However after the first three months of the fixed term, if the Tenant can find a suitable alternative tenant and providing this alternative tenant is acceptable to the Landlord (the Landlord’s approval not to be unreasonably withheld) the Tenant may give notice to end the tenancy on a date at least one month from the date that such approval is given by the Landlord. On the expiry of such notice, providing that the Tenant pays to the Landlord the reasonable expenses incurred by the Landlord in granting the necessary approval and in granting any new tenancy to the alternative tenant, the tenancy shall end.

5 Recovery of possession for breach of agreement
If the Rent or any part of it is in arrears for 14 days after it has become due (whether legally demanded or not) or if there is a breach of any of the obligations or agreements on the part of the Tenant the Landlord may re-enter upon the Property or any part in the name of the whole resuming possession on the furniture and effects and the tenancy shall absolutely determine but without prejudice to the other rights and remedies of the Landlord but the Landlord will not whilst the Tenant is residing in the Property physically retake possession without first obtaining a Court Order

Nothing in there that requires the landlord to give notice, but I know "the law" also has effect.

I've just been reading a article and (call me thick) but if I am reading it correctly under the section "seeking repossession", I am required to give the tenant 2 weeks notice for "ground 8" that I intend to seek a court order for repossession?

Reads that way. Be aware that I believe the courts can have a backlog.

Also T must be in 2 months arrears at time of service, and hearing. Some T's play the game, bringing it under 2 months for the hearing date.

 

[Piff]

It's residential. you can't seek possession without going to court, expiry or not. (I'm assuming your in England - no idea at all with resi in Scotland).

Rent Arrears & Evictions - The Best Way to Evict Assured Shorthold Tenants - LandlordZONE

There is an accelerated procedure, but you must give two months notice to the tenant.

Just read through your link.
It seems I can give 2 weeks notice for the overdue rent route then wait for a court date. Gets a court order for outstanding rent, but slim chance of actyually getting it!
Or on the accelerated method I give 2 months notice then wait for forms to be processed.

Not sure which would be quicker/best

 

[davidjpowell]

Just read through your link.
It seems I can give 2 weeks notice for the overdue rent route then wait for a court date. Gets a court order for outstanding rent, but slim chance of actyually getting it!
Or on the accelerated method I give 2 months notice then wait for forms to be processed.

Not sure which would be quicker/best

Me either. I think (but not certain) that some do both to get the fastest result

Landlordzone a pretty good place to go for advice.

 

[developer]

Whichever way you proceed, only a court can grant a repossession order.

You need to serve the right notice at the right time or the judge will throw it out.

Also, have you protected the tenant's deposit with one of the three schemes that are required by law?

There are serious consequences if not.

Unfortunately, due to bad landlords, the law is very much geared towards the tenant, rent arrears or not.

In Birmingham there is a council department called the Private Tenancy Team, who know the law and whose role is to arbitrate (though in reality they look to keep the tenant in the property). There may be an equivalent in your area.

Landlordzone (as previously mentioned) has a forum for advice.

As an aside, I've served notice but never had to go to court thus far - sometimes the notice is enough to gee them up.

I should add - with AST's repossession is mandatory, with no reason required, whether rent is owed or not, provided the correct procedure (i.e a court order) is followed.

 

[Piff]

Me either. I think (but not certain) that some do both to get the fastest result

Landlordzone a pretty good place to go for advice.

Registered on the site earlier, will check it out better tomorrow evening.
The full 2 months over due rent will not be 14 days overdue until 9th July
Seems the accelerated method guarantees the eviction notice where the other route risks the tenant topping up the rent to just under 2 months arrears.

Either way, currently 2.5 months out of pocket and it looks like another 2 - 3 months to get him out.
Who knows what refurbishment will be required at the end of that time

The joys of trying to manage part of your own pension

 

[Piff]

Also, have you protected the tenant's deposit with one of the three schemes that are required by law?

Long story - no deposit.

Originally let flat to young lady who had split with her boyfriend and had nowhere to go. She had cash to pay rent up front and was in work. I felt sorry for her and was please to have a female tenant, maybe she would look after the place better than some of the previous young male tenants.
Immediatly after moving in she lost her job & went onto housing benefit who paid from month 1, so effectively I was holding 1 months rent in excess.
Housing benefit arrived for 5 months before I received a call from boyfriend who said he wanted to meet to arrange taking over the tenancy as she was being held on remand and he was not sure how long she would be held.
He said (and showed me papers) that he was also entitled to housing benefit.
It also became clear that he had been living in the flat since the begining of her tenancy, either they had made up or I had been spun a line.
I got home & googled her Sharon Mann
So he is resident and asks to formalise his tenancy, already having housing benefit in place.
I reluctantly agreed - the alternative is that I have to evict him without a tenancy agreement in place. (note - different boyfriend to the one in the newspaper report!)
First months housing benefit didn't arrive. He had arranged for it to be paid into his bank account (isn't this new arrangement wonderfull) instead of it being paid direct to me. He has bank arrears so the bank take it and no rent for me. At this time I was a month in hand from the girlfriends initial payment.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some cash.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some more cash, but getting further into arrears.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - no money. When I chase it he says no longer getting housing benefit as he now has a job & will get paid on Wednesday and can pay some money then.
Some money turns up but getting further into arrears and so it goes on.
Here we are about five and a half months into his tenancy and he is about 2 and a half months in arrears.

So no deposit. Last time I visited (chasing rent) the place seemed in good order, however I worry what it will be like if he is served notice to get out.

 

[Piff]

I should add - with AST's repossession is mandatory, with no reason required, whether rent is owed or not, provided the correct procedure (i.e a court order) is followed.

Is this the section 21 route?

 

[davidjpowell]

Long story - no deposit.

Originally let flat to young lady who had split with her boyfriend and had nowhere to go. She had cash to pay rent up front and was in work. I felt sorry for her and was please to have a female tenant, maybe she would look after the place better than some of the previous young male tenants.
Immediatly after moving in she lost her job & went onto housing benefit who paid from month 1, so effectively I was holding 1 months rent in excess.
Housing benefit arrived for 5 months before I received a call from boyfriend who said he wanted to meet to arrange taking over the tenancy as she was being held on remand and he was not sure how long she would be held.
He said (and showed me papers) that he was also entitled to housing benefit.
It also became clear that he had been living in the flat since the begining of her tenancy, either they had made up or I had been spun a line.
I got home & googled her Sharon Mann
So he is resident and asks to formalise his tenancy, already having housing benefit in place.
I reluctantly agreed - the alternative is that I have to evict him without a tenancy agreement in place. (note - different boyfriend to the one in the newspaper report!)
First months housing benefit didn't arrive. He had arranged for it to be paid into his bank account (isn't this new arrangement wonderfull) instead of it being paid direct to me. He has bank arrears so the bank take it and no rent for me. At this time I was a month in hand from the girlfriends initial payment.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some cash.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some more cash, but getting further into arrears.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - no money. When I chase it he says no longer getting housing benefit as he now has a job & will get paid on Wednesday and can pay some money then.
Some money turns up but getting further into arrears and so it goes on.
Here we are about five and a half months into his tenancy and he is about 2 and a half months in arrears.

So no deposit. Last time I visited (chasing rent) the place seemed in good order, however I worry what it will be like if he is served notice to get out.

I've managed commercial premises in the past, and sadly have ended up with a few resi over shops and one memorable block of bedsits for a client to whom we could not say no.

The latter was a ballache of huge degree. Druggies, Prossies, the lot. We asked for some advice from the Police at one point how to secure the property better. They asked us to put up barbed wire fencing to keep the tenants in!

Client eventually had enough and evicted everyone, put it back with the auction house from whom he'd bought it as a bargain and got rid.

Back to my original though - with some Benefit people, the worst thing possible is for them to get a job...

 

[developer]

Long story - no deposit.

Originally let flat to young lady who had split with her boyfriend and had nowhere to go. She had cash to pay rent up front and was in work. I felt sorry for her and was please to have a female tenant, maybe she would look after the place better than some of the previous young male tenants.
Immediatly after moving in she lost her job & went onto housing benefit who paid from month 1, so effectively I was holding 1 months rent in excess.
Housing benefit arrived for 5 months before I received a call from boyfriend who said he wanted to meet to arrange taking over the tenancy as she was being held on remand and he was not sure how long she would be held.
He said (and showed me papers) that he was also entitled to housing benefit.
It also became clear that he had been living in the flat since the begining of her tenancy, either they had made up or I had been spun a line.
I got home & googled her Sharon Mann
So he is resident and asks to formalise his tenancy, already having housing benefit in place.
I reluctantly agreed - the alternative is that I have to evict him without a tenancy agreement in place. (note - different boyfriend to the one in the newspaper report!)
First months housing benefit didn't arrive. He had arranged for it to be paid into his bank account (isn't this new arrangement wonderfull) instead of it being paid direct to me. He has bank arrears so the bank take it and no rent for me. At this time I was a month in hand from the girlfriends initial payment.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some cash.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - same happens. He arranges some more cash, but getting further into arrears.
He says he will sort it for next month - guess what - no money. When I chase it he says no longer getting housing benefit as he now has a job & will get paid on Wednesday and can pay some money then.
Some money turns up but getting further into arrears and so it goes on.
Here we are about five and a half months into his tenancy and he is about 2 and a half months in arrears.

So no deposit. Last time I visited (chasing rent) the place seemed in good order, however I worry what it will be like if he is served notice to get out.

This is a complicated situation and I suggest you get the Private Tenancy Team involved, particularly as there are changes of tenancy, housing benefit based rent arrears and some informal arrangements involved.

Ultimately, you're unlikely to get the rent, as the DSS have paid him and will simply direct you to him for what he owes you.

I would do whatever you can to get him out and move on - sometimes you have to cut your losses for future peace of mind.

I've never gone down the fast track route so can't advise, sorry, but the Private Tenancy Team will.

ps, didn't we talk about this lad some months ago?

 

[m2287]

Change the locks, put his stuf in bin bags... Scum. Probably not very helpful. Sorry