Any high end Hi-Fi lovers?

[MB-BTurbo]

Indeed! One wouldn't want the music coming out all down side up....unless it was by Peter Gabriel

There are no up or down sides, only left and right stereo, giving us a horizontal sound stage, hence why we need atmos speakers for height. All the sound comes from those concentric cones. I don’t see how it makes any difference.

If you take away one speaker away you have mono sound. It doesn’t matter whether you are high, low, left or right, if you are the same distance from the speaker each time it’ll sound the same. The only perceived difference is with the speakers location in relation to you. This is why I suggested inverting them. As they are at the moment the sound comes from high up. Invert them and they are level with your ears.

 

[Mactech]

There are no up or down sides, only left and right stereo, giving us a horizontal sound stage, hence why we need atmos speakers for height. All the sound comes from those concentric cones. I don’t see how it makes any difference.

If you take away one speaker away you have mono sound. It doesn’t matter whether you are high, low, left or right, if you are the same distance from the speaker each time it’ll sound the same. The only perceived difference is with the speakers location in relation to you. This is why I suggested inverting them. As they are at the moment the sound comes from high up. Invert them and they are level with your ears.

Yes, I understand the physics involved and that should be QED...and not just the cable manufactures.
However, with really good systems it is possible not only to have depth of a sound stage, but also height. The depth of perception is easy enough to argue in the same way that our two eyes give us depth perception with vision, but the height really has to be heard to be believed. It must be to do with the way we hear reflected sound from surfaces and how our ears perceive this as I have have no better explanation.

One other thing about sound I cannot rationally explain is why my super tweeters (15 to 30khz) sound better and more expressive when connected.
After years of sitting in front of PA rigs and 40 years in motorsport it is no surprise that my hearing does not extend beyond 12khz, and yet my main rig sounds better to me with the super tweeters
I've done 'blind' tests and I know if they are on or off. Go figure!

The high up speakers in the breakfast room see most use as the sound system for the TV. The sound normally appears to come from the screen, but the sound stage can be heard to be wider than the distance between the speakers in some scenes. How does it do that?

 

[st13phil]

but the sound stage can be heard to be wider than the distance between the speakers in some scenes.

My system is a few notches below what I’d term “high end” (Cyrus Pre/DAC feeding Cyrus monoblocks into Wilson-Benesch Orators) but it does image very well.

People are always astonished as to how the soundstage extends outside the speakers, and vertically too. It also has good soundstage depth, with vocalists seeming to be anywhere from a couple of feet in front of the listener to somewhere behind the speakers.

It's amazing what a decent two-channel system can achieve.

 

[Mactech]

My system is a few notches below what I’d term “high end” (Cyrus Pre/DAC feeding Cyrus monoblocks into Wilson-Benesch Orators) but it does image very well.

People are always astonished as to how the soundstage extends outside the speakers, and vertically too. It also has good soundstage depth, with vocalists seeming to be anywhere from a couple of feet in front of the listener to somewhere behind the speakers.

It's amazing what a decent two-channel system can achieve.

I'll bet that is a beautifully balanced system and a lot closer to "high end" than most people will have ever heard.
Cyrus is really good stuff and I've been a fan and owner since 1987 until a couple of years ago when I sold my last 'heritage' Cyrus 2 amp to Japan for more than I paid for it new! They are not the most 'muscular' of amps but will sit really well along with the 'warm' Orator speakers.
Image does go a long way to rendering what we perceive as great music from our systems.

 

[st13phil]

Cyrus is really good stuff and I've been a fan and owner since 1987 until a couple of years ago when I sold my last 'heritage' Cyrus 2 amp to Japan for more than I paid for it new!

You're right about a balanced system delivering more than a random mixture of "the best" components. That's something I learned many years ago from Ken Proctor at Stilton Audio.

Funnily enough, I started my time with Cyrus equipment around 1987 with a Cyrus 2 (the revised, diecast, version). I'd auditioned it against a Linn Intek which was also a very good integrated amp, but preferred the Cyrus presentation. Subsequently I added a PSX that improved it further. I swapped that for a Cyrus Pre / Power combo when I first bought the Orators around 20 years ago, then swapped the two-channel Power for a pair of Monoblocks and finally a DAC-XP replaced the Pre after I auditioned a then new Nait 3 at home which reminded me why I've never been a fan of Naim kit(!).

Pretty much all my music is in FLAC format now as it makes it so accessible and easy to use, but I still have an LP12 for vinyl and that really does balance well with the rest of the system.

 

[Mactech]

You're right about a balanced system delivering more than a random mixture of "the best" components. That's something I learned many years ago from Ken Proctor at Stilton Audio.

Funnily enough, I started my time with Cyrus equipment around 1987 with a Cyrus 2 (the revised, diecast, version). I'd auditioned it against a Linn Intek which was also a very good integrated amp, but preferred the Cyrus presentation. Subsequently I added a PSX that improved it further. I swapped that for a Cyrus Pre / Power combo when I first bought the Orators around 20 years ago, then swapped the two-channel Power for a pair of Monoblocks and finally a DAC-XP replaced the Pre after I auditioned a then new Nait 3 at home which reminded me why I've never been a fan of Naim kit(!).

Pretty much all my music is in FLAC format now as it makes it so accessible and easy to use, but I still have an LP12 for vinyl and that really does balance well with the rest of the system.

So this will take you back a bit then
It must be an engineers thing or something, but we do seem to agree on a number of interests and ideas.
I like the way your system has grown up with you. Thanks for sharing that.

 

[renault12ts]

You're right about a balanced system delivering more than a random mixture of "the best" components. That's something I learned many years ago from Ken Proctor at Stilton Audio.

Funnily enough, I started my time with Cyrus equipment around 1987 with a Cyrus 2 (the revised, diecast, version). I'd auditioned it against a Linn Intek which was also a very good integrated amp, but preferred the Cyrus presentation. Subsequently I added a PSX that improved it further. I swapped that for a Cyrus Pre / Power combo when I first bought the Orators around 20 years ago, then swapped the two-channel Power for a pair of Monoblocks and finally a DAC-XP replaced the Pre after I auditioned a then new Nait 3 at home which reminded me why I've never been a fan of Naim kit(!).

Pretty much all my music is in FLAC format now as it makes it so accessible and easy to use, but I still have an LP12 for vinyl and that really does balance well with the rest of the system.

I had an Intek once upon a time. Not new, but interesting because it had been back to Linn and breathed upon...the inners were different from normal with extra very large capacitors. I sold it to Australia for double what I paid for it. I have always been a Linn fan. But not a fan of hi fi to the extent you and Mactech are! I still run a pair of Linn Keilidhs and they're 21 this year.
.

 

[AltonAnt]

One other thing about sound I cannot rationally explain is why my super tweeters (15 to 30khz) sound better and more expressive when connected.
After years of sitting in front of PA rigs and 40 years in motorsport it is no surprise that my hearing does not extend beyond 12khz, and yet my main rig sounds better to me with the super tweeters
I've done 'blind' tests and I know if they are on or off. Go figure!

This is just a wild guess but do you think it could be harmonics coming into play?

 

[st13phil]

So this will take you back a bit then

It does! Mine was a slightly later vintage than yours: it was one of the first with the flip up/down power switch.

It must be an engineers thing or something, but we do seem to agree on a number of interests and ideas.

That thought has struck me, too. I don't lay claim to a career as interesting as yours, but certainly seem to share many interests and ideas as you say.

 

[AltonAnt]

I would just like to put this out there for anyone interested.

diyAudio

The diyAudio Community

www.diyaudio.com

I have nothing to do with the site but find it to have a wealth of electronics experts which some may find interesting especially those with aging Hi-Fi systems.
There are many posts about capacitor replacement for example

 

[Mactech]

I went down to Essex coast at the weekend to pick some more PMC speakers which I figured were sensational value on a 'well know internet auction site'
They turned out to be even better than expected, with absolutely no marks or signs of wear, and working perfectly despite being a decade old.
I'm not sure quite where these will end up at the moment as I am just about to spec. a media room for my sister who has just moved into a brand new house with the provision for such things....or they may replace the speakers in my breakfast room.
But it did give me the option of back to backing my own trip-amped, active cross-over PMC's against some very similar speakers.
These speakers are one down in the range (and size) on my OB1i 3-way versions, being FB1i's, a really good 2 way speaker.

It was great opportunity to back to back the 'improvements' I have been making to my system for years.
My love affair with PMC speakers is founded in a visit to the Abbey Road mastering suite a few years ago, and I set out to build a system which would get close to sound of the studios' professional £100k one, but on a more domestic scale.
The FB1i's sound really good with a conventional power amp and the internal crossover. Incredibly detailed, superb bass from the advanced transmission line speakers and totally untiring. I could listen to these for hours and hours.
So have I actually made sonic advances with my 'professional' to domestic hifi?
Well yes!
Switching back to my Bryston amped, active cross-over 3 way speakers, there was a very obvious uplift in the detail, the clarity and spaciousness of the sound. Each of the drivers in my system are hard wired to their individual amps and those power sapping, distortion inducing in-speaker cross-overs are confined to the bin.
I knew this in the 1970's when I designed and built my own PA systems, and is the reason the the pro sound industry use 'active' speakers.
There are some really good conventional hifi systems and speakers as I was reminded by these PMC FB1i's.
Despite the number of hifi shows I have attended, the best sound I have ever heard is in the mastering suite at Abbey Road, followed very closely by the active `Bryson / PMC system in my own lounge. I'm happy with that.

 

[DrNick]

Yes, I understand the physics involved and that should be QED...and not just the cable manufactures.
However, with really good systems it is possible not only to have depth of a sound stage, but also height. The depth of perception is easy enough to argue in the same way that our two eyes give us depth perception with vision, but the height really has to be heard to be believed. It must be to do with the way we hear reflected sound from surfaces and how our ears perceive this as I have have no better explanation.

One other thing about sound I cannot rationally explain is why my super tweeters (15 to 30khz) sound better and more expressive when connected.
After years of sitting in front of PA rigs and 40 years in motorsport it is no surprise that my hearing does not extend beyond 12khz, and yet my main rig sounds better to me with the super tweeters
I've done 'blind' tests and I know if they are on or off. Go figure!

The high up speakers in the breakfast room see most use as the sound system for the TV. The sound normally appears to come from the screen, but the sound stage can be heard to be wider than the distance between the speakers in some scenes. How does it do that?

You are right. Check out this

Head-related transfer function - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Mactech]

You are right. Check out this

Head-related transfer function - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I have never come across HRTF, but it makes perfect sense now! Thanks!

 

[Ted]

Fwiw, I posted some excellent advice some years ago on this.
Thanks to the brilliant forum search sytem I found it easily.
Read and learn.

First of all check out the lights. It is well known among audiophiles that the more flashing lights, the better the equipment.
The case - the front should have a mirror finish as this reflects the ambient light, and focusses the laser onto the disk.
Ensure that when you turn on there is a message that says 'hello' or 'goodbye' or 'see you' when turned on/off this is <glojomode> NOT </glojomode> a gimmick, but the internal microprocessors doing additional checks, and is a sign of quality.
Check the manual. If it is written badly or in pidgin english, you can be sure that all of the money has gone into technology and not into unnecessary documentation.
Spending large amounts on speaker cables etc is A WASTE OF MONEY. Common sense dictates that thr more cores there are in a cable, the higher resistance (known as ohms law) e.g. 1 wire at 1 ohm = 1 ohm. 10 wires at 1 ohm = 10 ohms. Money down the drain. Much better spent on speakers.
Speakers are something I am a bit of an expert on. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES buy 'ordinary' speakers. The best way to tell a speaker performance is by shape (the 'sound box'). More complex shapes (lots of round bits, complex curves etc) 'mould' the sound within the speaker, and give a much more rounded sound.
So there you are. You can safely ignore such things as watts, THD, etc as they are purely hypothetical. Sound (in particular music) is highly subjective, and things like watts, thd, s/n ratios are completely irrelevant to a true audiophile such as myself.
HTH Please feel free to ask any further questions.

 

[alabbasi]

Here's my setup. The digital stuff is in the cabinet and the analogue stuff is up top