Are electric cars the future?

[Apial]

The range problem with electric could be solved by common interchangable battery packs that slot in, drive to petrol/charging station and swap. It would require co-operation by manufacturers, and also how to deal with the problem of your first long trip in your new battery car and end up getting an old swap battery at the changeover. Back home continue doing the 10 mile daily trip with overnight charging and three weeks later the old pack gives up. Who pays for the new pack?

Renault in their advertising blurb say this is what they have in place on the French autoroutes. It takes 2-3 minutes to swap the battery pack. The pack is always leased and it has a minimum efficiency of 70%, after which it is recycled.

I do not hear of any plans for the battery swap network to be introduced into the UK yet, and Renault have delayed the electric vehicle launch for 6 months until I think March?

 

[MicB]

I'm really quite taken by the Tesla S, especially in "performance" Guise.

Do we think it will succeed?

2012 Tesla Model S First Ride - Motor Trend

I do not think electric will ever be the answer other than, perhaps, for urban runabouts. I will be surprised if the weight-range-charging times is ever adequately resolved for all purpose motoring.

Mic

 

[DrNick]

Electric is the way of the future.

The battery reliability issue is a non-issue
Ten-Year Old Toyota Hybrid Priuses Defy Early Critics
After 10 years, there was not practical degradation of performance. It is also noted that if you need to replace a battery after 10 years, the sensible approach is to get one from the scrappy.

Other technologies are also being developed. Supercapacitors offer a very fast charge rate, but currently don't offer the same energy density as batteries. Nevertheless, they are suited to automotive applications. Here's a reference. Not the best, a bit simplistic, but gives you the idea
Cheaper Ultracapacitors for Electric Vehicles

You can also put a solar charger in your sunroof - every little helps!

Hydrogen is not going to save the world. We have been promised hydrogen for years and it hasn't materialised. Hydrogen is undoubtably dangerous, and doubly so in the hands of Joe Public. Someone will try to subvert any safety systems put in place. The Nissan Leaf has already been hacked.

Having just been to China, I was amazed at the number of electric bikes going around. Having recently converted my bike to electric, I can say that it is great for commuting in good weather! I was also suprised by the number of electric scooters around. These though have a downside inthat they are near silent and so its easy for pedestrians to try and kill themselves by getting in front of them. This is a real problem in China as the scooters appear to view people as targets

SO as technology develops and attitides change, we will see electric vehicles becoming completely practical - initially for shorter commuting journeys because people are paranoid about running out of charge, but increasingly for longer journeys as people get used to the idea of overnight charging and get less excited by the idea of running out of charge (which if you think about it, is no different from running out of fuel. The only difference is that you have to plan ahead a bit because charging currently takes longer than filling a tank. Technology like supercapacitors will change that though)

My 2 penneth, anyway

 

[Bellow]

But it isn't highly dangerous. No more than petrol and without all the particulates etc over all less so. Its only dangerous if its ignited. H2 could be stored as a compressed liquid and delivered in high pressure and stored in a high pressure/insulated tank. BMW made it work 1st go.

Hydrogen flammability limits are lethal - yet a lit match can be thrown into a pool of petrol without it all going up.

Hydrogen will leak from a tank in one week. Combine with the above. Sitill ''nice''?

Back to reality and the OP question. Yes, but a faraway future none of us will see.

 

[st4]

Hydrogen flammability limits are lethal - yet a lit match can be thrown into a pool of petrol without it all going up.
Hydrogen will leak from a tank in one week. Combine with the above. Sitill ''nice''?

True but only if no air or oxygen present. Same with hydrogen no air no burn.

Please read my links to give you a better understanding of how hydrogen can be stored more safely and without massive pressure.

Note also how batteries can discharge if left for a long time. I recall charging up a work laptop, not using it for 2 months and turning it on and nada, zilch, nothing.

Batteries in their present state are not the answer. I read with interest re the 10yo Prius but all the energy used in that car comes from the fuel tank, deep cycling probably doesn't happen as often in the Prius and the batteries are tiny in scope for what you need for a full on EV.

 

[Bellow]

True but only if no air or oxygen present. Same with hydrogen no air no burn.

Nope. There wasn't a vacuum when I've seen it done (numerous times). Go try it for yourself.

 

[whitenemesis]

Until they find a way to recharge/refuel/regenerate in the same short time it takes to pump in 80ltrs of petrol/diesel 'alternative' fuels will remain just that and not mainstream.

 

[wemorgan]

Today a 30mpg car costs roughly 20ppm on fuel to run. So with an average 10k miles per year that's £2k of fuel.

It's easy to imagine fuel prices doubling (not including inflation). How many people are willing to pay £4k on fuel a year, if there is an alternative that costs £500-£1000?

Yes there will be life style changes. People may choose to keep an ICE car for those special long journeys made less frequently, but I'd rent an ICE car if this was once a month or less.

Then there's public transport as previously mentioned. It's expensive today, but as the cost of fuel rises so it may increasingly look like a more affordable option. Especially as taxes will rise for driving in to congested cities.

Taxation will force change. Then people will simply workaround issues such as range and recharge times. A bit of forward planning is all that's required.

 

[DrNick]

Until they find a way to recharge/refuel/regenerate in the same short time it takes to pump in 80ltrs of petrol/diesel 'alternative' fuels will remain just that and not mainstream.

No, its just that attitute that needs to change. People are quite happy to plug their phones in overnight to recharge them.
To play Devils advocate, its entirely possible for people to run phones on alcohol based fuel cells. Rather like a small fuel tank you would have to fill up with alcohol. This then reacts to produced electricity that could power the phone or a laptop. This will never catch on because people are used to plugging their phones into a charger, not topping them up with fuel.

Whats the difference? None really. Its just what people are used to. People like what they know.

Imagine if it was the other way round.You can imagine the conversation. Everybody plugs their car in overnight, and then some bright spark says, "hang on - we can run these things on a liquid fuel. Ok so its a bit dangerous and polluting, and makes your car into a potential bomb, but its so convenient! No, you can't fill it up overnight when you are not using it. Yes, you have to go to a special fuelling station. What happens if you forget? You stop. What happens if you miss the sign saying "Last fuel for 100 miles" and you've only got a bit left. You stop. Is this a likely occurrence? Why do you think the signs there in the first place. What about if I'm late, and suddenly I realise I've got to put some more fuel in- that will just make me later, won't it? No thanks, I think until you are able to trickle this petrol in overnight like electricity, this petrol 'alternative' fuel will remain just that and not mainstream."

DrNick

 

[whitenemesis]

DrNick - That all works if the overnight charge will last the next day's usage?

My point being currently it is very quick to refuel, yes it's what we are used to and we would expect it to continue to be so. Fancy sitting at the motorway services for 4hrs whilst your batteries are recharged.

IIRC some one was suggesting we have exchange battery packs, just pull up and swap over. That would work but can you see all manufacturers agreeing on a system/pack suitable for their car design?

 

[Alfie]

I think the refuelling issue is a good point. At present if the car is out of fuel and needed urgently for a significant trip, a quick trip to the fuel station and off you go. If the EV was flat and suddenly needed then it's unavailable. The answer would be to have two vehicles. One always charged or a 'spare' battery pack ready to slot in.

EV's wont catch on significantly until the convenience of ICE is matched. Attitudes don't and won't change en-mass to accomodate the current shortcomings of EV's.

I'd buy an EV for short town hops only if it was very very cheap to run, didnt look anything like a Prius or derivatives thereof and I had a 'proper' car with a 'proper' engine (not a Smart ) for serious journeys. Actually an electric smart would fit the bill!

 

[Bellow]

If batteries were where they needed to be then there wouldn't be the research that is currently underway on micro engines - to power laptops.....

Where electric cars may gain a foothold is in niche markets where other benefits are appreciated. Autocar love the smooth ride and transmission they get from the Nissan Leaf they are currently running. Ideal for the retired who have plenty time to plan around the charging times perhaps? But they had better be home owners with a drive-way or garage. As pointed out elsewhere, home recharging is suitable only for a fraction of the car driving population in the UK. Flat dwellers can forget it.

 

[Dieselman]

DrNick - That all works if the overnight charge will last the next day's usage?

My point being currently it is very quick to refuel, yes it's what we are used to and we would expect it to continue to be so. Fancy sitting at the motorway services for 4hrs whilst your batteries are recharged.

IIRC some one was suggesting we have exchange battery packs, just pull up and swap over. That would work but can you see all manufacturers agreeing on a system/pack suitable for their car design?

The Tesla-S has three battery pack options, the largest being for 300 mile range, is that enough for one day?

All electric cars can recharge quickly if the power source can deliver enough current.
Of a 3 phase source the Tesla-S charges 50% charge in 30 minutes.

The Renault system is great, 1 minute to change batteries and you don't leave the car.

 

[Fuji]

Personally, I think that BEVs are good for light inner-city use, and milk floats, but not much else. I think the mainstream will all move over to hybrids and then onto something like H2.

Pure BEV's like the Tesla S will remain a niche for a couple of reasons :

Power/weight - a 30-litre tank of petrol weighs about 25Kg and provides approximately 0.28MWh (one gigajoule) (source). At around 30% average efficiency, this is a usable energy of 0.084MWh, or 33.6KWh/kg.

In comparison, the Tesla Roadster stores (assuming 100% efficiency) 0.056MWh, but the battery pack weighs 990 pounds (449Kgs) - double the dry weight of the Merc OM642 V6 diesel engine - giving just 0.125KWh/kg

The Telsa S has an optional, leading-edge 85KWh battery (0.085 MWh) at close to 100% efficiency. So, when fully charged, the Tesla S has about a 40% disadvantage over a typical petrol car when it comes to capacity.

Recharging - to fully recharge (from empty) a 85KWh (300mile range) battery in 5-10 minutes needs some serious power to be moved between the "pump" and the battery. Practically, this means thick metal connecters (more bar than cable), and a massive bank of capacitors in the fuel station to load balance between the grid and the forecourt. That is assuming that a battery/supercap technolgy is invented that can practically handle that charging rate without blowing up...

What is impressive is that the Tesla S can be recharged to provide 160 miles (under ideal conditions) in 30 mins. That's Milton Keynes to Manchester on a warm sunny day with no aircon, no traffic, and the wind behind you!

Battery swap - there is no way this could compete, cost wise, with home charging, and with the infrastructure requirement, it is hard to see how it could even compete with oil. Each station would need to hold enough fully-charged batteries in stock to cope with the number of cars coming in for a swap. These things are heavy, so equipment would needed to do the replacement, move the batteries to charging points, etc, etc. Finally, there would need to be a defined standard for the size/shape/capacity of the batteries, or where in the car they should be located. Just getting that in place could take a decade.

Safety - a fully charged 85KWh lithium battery pack is literally a bomb. Thousands of laptop battery cells all going off at the same time would not be a pleasant experience...

Temperature restrictions - the batteries have problems running at 0 degrees C and cannot be charged. Power has to be used to warm them to optimal conditions - and keep them warm.

Cost

Variable Range / range anxiety / etc - need I say more..

Electric-drive cars ARE the way forward BUT based on above (and plenty more) not as pure BEVs. Either fuel cell, hybrid, something new like thorium, or a solution where a constant supply of power (i.e. rail, inductive, wireless power) can be provided to the car.

Fuel cell H2 seems the most likely, and has a lot going for it. Mercedes have been playing with the technology for years, with some people expecting a consumer product in 2015 (link).

For what it's worth, H2 can be created in abundance as a byproduct of nuclear fission in higher temperature reactors.

If you want to try the BEV experience today, to see if you can live with it, make sure you have Start/Stop active in your car and ...

1. When you next need to refill, top up to 15 litres of fuel and wait 30 minutes before driving off.
2. Or, top up to 30 litres, and wait 4 hours before driving off.

If that suits your lifestyle, get a BEV.

Finally, here's a fun video showing what a fraction of the power needed to fast charge a car battery can do (100A DC @10V): Fun with ultracaps.

 

[DrNick]

If you want to try the BEV experience today, to see if you can live with it, make sure you have Start/Stop active in your car and ...

1. When you next need to refill, top up to 15 litres of fuel and wait 30 minutes before driving off.
2. Or, top up to 30 litres, and wait 4 hours before driving off.

If that suits your lifestyle, get a BEV.

No, thats not the way to do it. Plug your car in at night so you have a full 'tank' every morning and never worry about a filling station. As DM says, 300 miles should be enough for most people. People are happy to charge their phones up overnight. They will get used to charging their cars up.

 

[camerafodder]

Safety - a fully charged 85KWh lithium battery pack is literally a bomb. Thousands of laptop battery cells all going off at the same time would not be a pleasant experience...

Similar to a tank filled with 80Litres of petrol isn't it?

 

[whitenemesis]

Similar to a tank filled with 80Litres of petrol isn't it?

Petrol is quite difficult to ignite. The vapour, yes but a tank of liquid petrol, no. How many collisions result in fire? Not that many, some sure but almost certainly ignited by external sources, such as sparking electrics!

A massive charge held in a battery pack is just waiting to escape..

 

[camerafodder]

Petrol is quite difficult to ignite. The vapour, yes but a tank of liquid petrol, no. How many collisions result in fire? Not that many, some sure but almost certainly ignited by external sources, such as sparking electrics!

A massive charge held in a battery pack is just waiting to escape..

WN my point is this: Petrol vapourizes very readily and any ignition source present will iginite it. Petrol tanks are strong and there are many safety systems in place to try and stem the leakage of fuel but the embodied energy is still there and fire and explosions do occur.

There are ways also to mitigate that danger of stored energy in batteries (big batteries are part of my work) and whilst I don't know an awful lot of detail on EV specific protection systems I'd be surprised if there aren't some fairly good protection systems employed by manufacturers to prevent the batteries being subjected to short circuit or other damage liable to result in explosion.

The post I was referring to is using an emotive argument to engender fear of something that may not be a great issue in the scheme of things.

 

[wemorgan]

Personally, I think that BEVs are good for light inner-city use, and milk floats, but not much else

Pure BEV's like the Tesla S will remain a niche for a couple of reasons :

Power/weight - a 30-litre tank of petrol weighs about 25Kg and provides approximately 0.28MWh (one gigajoule) (source). At around 30% average efficiency, this is a usable energy of 0.084MWh, or 33.6KWh/kg.

In comparison, the Tesla Roadster stores (assuming 100% efficiency) 0.056MWh, but the battery pack weighs 990 pounds (449Kgs) - double the dry weight of the Merc OM642 V6 diesel engine - giving just 0.125KWh/kg

The Telsa S has an optional, leading-edge 85KWh battery (0.085 MWh) at close to 100% efficiency. So, when fully charged, the Tesla S has about a 40% disadvantage over a typical petrol car when it comes to capacity.

Doesn’t the same argument work in favour of EVs?

You say EVs are good for light inner city cars. As a side point, I’m not sure how light an EV inner city car can be. But the benefits of EVs for a city duty cycle are generally accepted.

But mass is less of an issue for the extra-urban duty cycle. So if an EV is say 300-500kg heavier than an ICE car this will degrade the performance of the EV by less than mass difference alone suggests.

So I believe the 40% disadvantage you mention is not as detrimental as it first seems.

 

[Shude]

But mass is less of an issue for the extra-urban duty cycle. So if an EV is say 300-500kg heavier than an ICE car this will degrade the performance of the EV by less than mass difference alone suggests.

Remember that the mass will be in the floor and wheel wells so in the event of a collision with a pedestrian the crash protection can be much better than having a half ton block of iron hanging over the front wheels!