Are modern cars too complicated?

[JumboBeef]

Is it me, or are modern cars too complicated?

Reading though the threads in this forum, it seems to me that modern cars (of all makes, not just MB) are way too complicated. Sure, it's OK when they are new but as they get older, how is anyone going to maintain them?

I read (if I'm correct) that is costs £500 to have the sparkplugs replaced on a modern S class (is this correct?) If this is so, then is anyone really going to keep this type of car on the road when they are 10+ years old and are, at best, are only worth a grand or two?

I can't see how any of the modern stuff can be tomorrow's classic car. How can you keep an old car car on the road cheaply when everything needs to be done with a laptop or at a MB garage?

I like my W124, and I like my 1996 Disco V8: both of which were made before you needed computers to switch your headlights on, or to control your gearbox or one of any other million things on modern stuff which needs controlling via computer. I can (generally) fix my cars with the tools in my tool box. It is all now (to me) over engineered.

I see companies in the future offering 'retro' kits, where you rip out all the modern stuff and replace it with just wires and switches. Imagine that: lights which are controlled by a wire, a fuse and a switch!

Is it me, or does anyone else agree?

 

[grober]

100%

I predict that in years to come it will be the failure of electronics that will put cars off the road ( i.e. beyond economic repair) not body or mechanical failure. Already presaged by almost new cars being written off after all their airbag systems deploy in an accident.

 

[Howard]

I agree too , but thats why engines are so smooth now , suspension is so good , stuff like that ... stuff that needs computers to control it to be that good ..

Look at the Typhoon , without computers it would fall out of the sky , but with computers it is one of the best planes there is ...

 

[Dieselman]

But like in all other aspects of life, the electronics will become cheaper and easier to diagnose.

Electronic apparatus is actually much cheaper to make than mechanical and can do a lot more.

Things like spark plug replacements aren't expensive due to electronics, that's due to people wanting refinement and power and tighter packaging of engines.
Many older cars were buggers to work on so expensive to fix.

 

[amwebby]

I agree with Dieselman, as computer diagnostic systems become cheaper and more ubiquitous diagnosing and repairing faults will actually become easier and cheaper than many older "mechanical" cars. My 1978 Aston Martin has no computer chips but is a bugger to diagnose faults and very expensive to fix them.

 

[trapperjohn]

Opposing posts but truth in both. People will stick with what they know best or are most comfortable running. Young or old you dont see that many cars broken down at the side of the road nowadays. Some old cars are a bugger to work on but anyone tried to change a side light bulb on a Renau Megan Scenic, nightmare apparently. 190s and 124s for me. Would love an S Class but I have "technofear" coupled with "walletfear" might try an elderly S280 one day.

 

[stumpy1]

Same with airliners, I left engineering when I had to swap my toolkit for a laptop

 

[kikkthecat]

I'm 100% in agreement.
I was just wondering at what point my car will be declared "beyond economic repair"

It developed a strange electrical fault on 28th January and they are still no nearer fixing it now than they were then. When it first happened 3 technicians all said "it's the ignition module" and replaced it. Since then they have discussed it with the MB technical dept at Milton Keynes and are all still having a guess as to what the problem is.
So far they have replaced
Ignition module, front SAM, ABS relay, ESR relay, BAS relay, Instument cluster, Engine ECU, Gearbox ECU, yet the problem is still there and when I last called in they were fitting a new wiring loom. I shudder to think how much money they've thrown at it already.
It's warranty work so I'm not worried about cost but at some point I'm sure MB must be.
Oh and there is the little matter of depreciation on the 09 reg 3.0 V6 they registered as a courtesy vehicle for me while they sort this out. So far I've done 1000 miles a week.

Modern electronics ? No thank you. There is a lot to be said for wires and switches.

 

[Dieselman]

Modern electronics ? No thank you. There is a lot to be said for wires and switches.

Electronics don't replace wires and switches, they just reduce the number of them.

Whatever is wrong with your car will be a simple fault, it's just that currently, most mechanics don't understand how to diagnose them.
Unfortunately I see this everyday. Most technicians in many industries don't know how to use a meter or diagnose problems without being 'board jockeys'.

Many garages can't fix older cars. Last week I was asked to look at MKII Golf GTi with starting and running issues after it's had £450 spent to sort it.

£15 later it was fixed.

 

[JumboBeef]

But I think some electronics are pointless.....

Take reverse parking sensors. I was talking to someone I know a while ago who works at a bodyshop and he said since these were introduced the number of rear bumper/reverse damage repairs he had seen had increased since these sensors were introduced. People reverse into posts which the sensors didn't pick up....

People put blind faith into electronics, and I think it is this sort of electronics which make a car over complex and is the sort we could all live without. I mean, what is wrong with learning how to reverse your car using the rear window/mirrors/good driving skills?

 

[kikkthecat]

I have no doubt it is something simple, just hard to find as it's intermittent.
I was in the workshop when my dashboard was lit up like a christmas tree and it was plugged into the diagnostic machine that showed 25 stored faults and 13 current ones, turned the engine off and back on and it showed no current faults. It's not just the people at my dealer who cant diagnose it, it's in the hands of the MB technical department at Milton Keynes. Surely I have to assume they understand how to diagnose these things.

But hey, 2 months on and a brand new car on my drive......

 

[raymont]

........ it's just that currently, most mechanics don't understand how to diagnose them.

This is true. The skill set required to work on cars is changing and I suspect that many, but certainly not all, mechanics who have good mechanical (i.e. oily bits) skills are not acquiring the skill set needed to deal with the computer / electronic systems in modern cars. Good at changing a clutch, but not so hot at diagnosing, configuring and updating electronics and software.

Not convinced that cars are less maintainable, just requires different skills to do it and some dealers are struggling. Hence the existence of 'specialist' organisations like Comand who are able to get to grips with the technology.

 

[grober]

Dieselman and AmWebby are correct of course that IN THEORY electronic components should be cheaper and more versatile. UNFORTUNATELY in the real world this is not the case. I'm sure a Engine ECU costs peanuts to make - however thats' not reflected in the price MERCEDES and other car manufacturers CHARGE FOR THEM. Why because many car manufacturers go to great lengths to keep their software and operating systems proprietary- knowledge is power- and they use the fact to increase their service and spare part revenue streams because they have a "captive" clientel.
The other aspect to this is the rapid obsolescence inherent in digital electronics which means that older legacy systems soon cease to be supported in terms of hardware or software. This drives the acquistion of new technology rather than repair or modification of an existing ones meaning an infrastructure and skill base to do this disappears,which is ultimately is wasteful of energy and manufacturing resources and ends up costing the customer money.

 

[MBManInKen]

My W140 was chock-full of electronics. So is my W220. Neither one has ever had an electronics failure and when my W140 went t***-up, it was a mechanical failure (the chain that broke) that killed it off.

Of course, increased complexity does increase the number of places something can go wrong. But technology evolves and these electronics are there for good reason. I have nostalgic(*) memories of my earlier W116 and W126 cars, but they would not be equivalent replacements for the contemporary drive in terms of comfort, refinement, features and safety that my W220 offers.

There are aspects of modern cars that mechanics, dealers and other no doubt have not come to terms with yet and as with any human activity and progress, new developments come with their own challenges. That is no argument against them - we'd still sit in caves dragging womenfolk around by their hairs drawing cattle on the cave walls and living an average of 30 years if we'd let new challenges stand in the way of evolution and development..


(*) Probably more to do with the kind of person I was in those days - a classic aspect of the "the good old days" phenomenon...

 

[amwebby]

Dieselman and AmWebby are correct of course that IN THEORY electronic components should be cheaper and more versatile. UNFORTUNATELY in the real world this is not the case. I'm sure a Engine ECU costs peanuts to make - however thats' not reflected in the price MERCEDES and other car manufacturers CHARGE FOR THEM. Why because many car manufacturers go to great lengths to keep their software and operating systems proprietary- knowledge is power- and they use the fact to increase their service and spare part revenue streams because they have a "captive" clientel.
The other aspect to this is the rapid obsolescence inherent in digital electronics which means that older legacy systems soon cease to be supported in terms of hardware or software. This drives the acquistion of new technology rather than repair or modification of an existing ones meaning an infrastructure and skill base to do this disappears,which is ultimately is wasteful of energy and manufacturing resources and ends up costing the customer money.

Yes, but how long before these "obsolete" technologies cease to be "supported", i.e. held proprietorially by MB et al? It is already happening with cheap STAR alternatives out there.

Just as carburettors were once a secret understood, and charged accordingly by the select few but are now the provence of the home mechanic or the chap with a garage in a railway arch, so electronics will become more ubiquitous. With the banker's FU driving people to keep their cars longer (did you see what I did there?), cheaper electronic servicing can only gather pace.

 

[Dryce]

Things like spark plug replacements aren't expensive due to electronics, that's due to people wanting refinement and power and tighter packaging of engines.

I think the electronics by themselves get too much of a bad wrap.

The problem with the costs of repair are down to labour costs and the overall complexity. Modern headlamps and spark plugs are prime examples of what used to be a cheap and basic set of components and a small amount of labour.

We have more assemblies and systems components than 20 years ago in an 'average car'. Such as aircon units, airbags, catalytic converters, power steering, fuel injection, immobilisers, alarms, ABS, and sensors.

And as we get more for our money in terms of hardware the labour costs to fix them have risen.

 

[lynall]

Remember they all said the montego or was it allegro? was to complicated when it came out with elec ign.

No matter how complicated something is, as time goes on people learn how to repair it and the word spreads.



Lynall

 

[Frank O' Phile]

I agree with JumboBeef, I love my cars and bikes and, most of the time, love working on them. Basically I can't afford to go with dealer servicing and I certainly can't afford to get ripped off by them. Or as Sp!ke calls it, bangernomics.

Most of my current fleet (3 cars, 4 bikes) are from the 80's and early 90's. I know how they work. I know what most of the components do. I feel pretty confident about fixing them when they don't. And the beauty of my 124 is that, so far, it doesn't need constant attention, just basic servicing that I can do myself.

Must go and rebuild my cb400 calipers now, no abs, no srs, just a couple of pistons and some fluid. And it works.

Still, if I had the money, I would love a big b@$tard S-class and let someone else look after it. And still have my old bikes for me to fettle.

 

[stevesey]

Remember they all said the montego or was it allegro? was to complicated when it came out with elec ign.

No matter how complicated something is, as time goes on people learn how to repair it and the word spreads.

Must have been the Won'tego - built my own electronic ignition for my allegro.

 

[The Boss]

I agree 100%

Yes, this is very true, i have a fleet of new and old cars.

My w124 cabrio and original slk are simple and non stressed vehicles. With the S class and e classes of current models, both are very computer based and as things start mulfunctioning, the cars looses its premium feel that is based on the electronics, so focusing on the raw original cars, true mechanical faults could be a nightmare, but I have never had major head aches with my older cars. I have 3 w123 saloons and they still run on almost original components, my w124 is a treasure and my slk is simply reliable as my every day car. SLK has 110,000 miles, 1997, one owner, simply perfect. W124, 27k on the clock, my weekend car to the pub on a sunny day..

I do worry what the future holds for the modern electronic cars.. ie.. electronic breaking systems are annoying, navis are annoying,

like mobile phones, a cars purpose should go back to the route, or eventually, the next s class will be more like a mobile home, not a car!!