Argos shenanigans

[rockits]

At the moment they make an invoice they are due to HMRC VAT amount. Waiting for 30 days for a return period to pass is their excuse for keeping the 20% of each transaction for minimum of 30 days upto maximum of 60 days. With monthly sales of aproximately 341 million pounds 20% is 68 million cash pounds on their accounts to play with.
That is why you can’t get the invoice now.

Doesn't really work like that & I can't see that working. The sale date is the tax date for HMRC & VAT records. The only difference would be if the refund fell in the next VAT quarter as most VAT is done quarterly. Unless Argos have a special arrangement & do it monthly.

 

[MercedesDriver]

Hi,
They are probably not doing this - as the tax point is the earlier of either the date of supply or the date of the invoice.
If they are issuing invoices late to avoid paying VAT early - then they would risk being caught for VAT fraud.
I suspect pure, old fashioned incompetence!
Cheers
Steve

If it’s incompetence then it is widespread through entire retail business. Maplin, Toys R Us and others all went under because of unpaid VAT bills.
It’s hard to believe they were all incompetent, but on contrary. Those schemes work well until sales start to fall. Exactly this happened in last 2 years and I’m worried that more will have the same destiny.

 

[MercedesDriver]

Doesn't really work like that & I can't see that working. The sale date is the tax date for HMRC & VAT records. The only difference would be if the refund fell in the next VAT quarter as most VAT is done quarterly. Unless Argos have a special arrangement & do it monthly.

What happened with £15m Toys R Us got on their bank accounts for VAT? How can it happen they can’t pay the taxman unless they were playing with it?
£15m VAT Bill Pushes Toys R Us Closer to Administration

 

[219]

Unlike a printer for a business I’m guessing there’s not many folk able to claim the VAT back on a ‘cut n blow’?

Actors, fashion models ?

 

[219]

This is a very good point. BUT Argos can't have their cake and eat it... if they say I didn't buy it as a business, then consumer laws should apply.

That may be the note he put on your file : so now if you buy anything for yourself you will have no right of return!

 

[Deleted member 113659]

Actors, fashion models ?

Aye, as I said, not many.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

There’s a few issue here that are muddying the waters:

1. You’ve dealt with a retail outfit and tried to carry out a retrospective commercial agreement.

2. As soon as you inform the retailer that it’s a business purchase consumer law doesn’t apply to you.

3. Contrary to what some others have said, you can only reclaim V.A.T. on purchases that have a V.A.T. breakdown on the receipt, otherwise you have to assume there is no V.A.T. element to the purchase (and so will the V.A.T. man)

 

[Deleted member 37751]

At the moment they make an invoice they are due to HMRC VAT amount. Waiting for 30 days for a return period to pass is their excuse for keeping the 20% of each transaction for minimum of 30 days upto maximum of 60 days. With monthly sales of aproximately 341 million pounds 20% is 68 million cash pounds on their accounts to play with.
That is why you can’t get the invoice now.

Any liquid businesss worth their salt doesn’t play with money owed to the V.A.T. man because your business then effectively becomes a pyramid scheme.

 

[MercedesDriver]

Any liquid businesss worth their salt doesn’t play with money owed to the V.A.T. man because your business then effectively becomes a pyramid scheme.

That’s exactly what is happening.

 

[markjay]

There’s a few issue here that are muddying the waters:

1. You’ve dealt with a retail outfit and tried to carry out a retrospective commercial agreement.

2. As soon as you inform the retailer that it’s a business purchase consumer law doesn’t apply to you.

3. Contrary to what some others have said, you can only reclaim V.A.T. on purchases that have a V.A.T. breakdown on the receipt, otherwise you have to assume there is no V.A.T. element to the purchase (and so will the V.A.T. man)

Re point 1: Correct, and I accepted that, which is why I told them I am happy for the VAT receipt to be issued in my own name (not the company name), i.e. the same name that's on the order. This would have been fine, as I can claim it as expenses and still get the VAT back through the business. It's their response that they don't issue VAT receipt to non-business buyers (i.e. consumers) that I found puzzling.

Re point 2: My intruding consumer law into the discussion was a semi-hypothetical argument, i.e. I was trying to get them to see sense. But either way it is irrelevant because their initial response was that I can't return the goods due to the 'note on my file', and then the manager's response mentioned a 30-day returns policy (which presumably applies to all purchases - there was no mentioning of business purchases being excluded form the store's returns policy). So in the first instance the information provided was conflicting and misleading. Then, assuming the 'not on my file' refers to me declaring that this was a business purchase and excluding me from returning the goods - how can they at the same time justify not issuing a VAT receipt because I am not a business? Schrödinger's cat comes to mind...

Re point 3: Correct, and I made this point to the person behind the till when he tried to say that the order confirmation email (which did not show the VAT amount) was my VAT receipt...

 

[markjay]

Any liquid businesss worth their salt doesn’t play with money owed to the V.A.T. man because your business then effectively becomes a pyramid scheme.

Many years ago an accountant advised us that as a small business we should open two bank accounts, a current account and a 'VAT account', and transfer the VAT amount from the current account to the VAT amount as soon as payment is received from each customer. This will ensure that we will always have the money for the vatman. Nowadays the business has grown and we don't actually do that, but we do have cash reserves ring-fenced for VAT and CT. And it would seem that large retailers simply rely on being able to pay the next VAT bill from wishful future sales figures. For B2B resellers where they also provide credit to their customers, it's even worse as their ability to pay the VAT bill depends on cash flow (unless they run a cash-based accounting and VAT system as many professionals do).

 

[markjay]

The plot thickens.... went to the same Argos store today to pick-up another item from the original order which was out-of-stock on Friday.

Asked for 'manual invoice'... got a blank stare, no they have never of heard of such a thing.

I pointed-out that the person who served my on Friday evening said I could get a 'manual invoice'... no they could not find out from my order number who served me on Friday, and had no idea why he would suggest that.

Went through the usual rigmarole of They: -"The VAT receipt is in the email"; Me: -"No it isn't"; They: -"You'll need to call customer services"; Me: -"Already did" etc etc.

He then called head-office (or someone higher-up in the chain anyway), and got the response that "it will be sent by post in 30 days" (no argument this time about it not being a company).

So I gave up, it's a lovely Sunday afternoon and the sun is shining. Went to a coffee shop in the high street and sat there with Mrs MJ soaking in the rays having tea and orange joice.

So come what may. The VAT receipt may or may not materialise in 30 days, who knows.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

Think I’d give Argos a swerve next time MJ...

 

[markjay]

Think I’d give Argos a swerve next time MJ...

Yup.....

 

[rockits]

Surely there must be some HMRC regulation that dictates that a VAT registered business has to issue a VAT receipt easily enough if requested.

 

[rockits]

Quote from HMRC site:
'A VAT registered supplier may be fined if they do not issue a VAT invoice when asked to do so by a VAT registered buyer.'

'Generally you must issue VAT invoices within 30 days of a tax point arising. In some situations, you may be able extend the 30 day time limit.'


Modified VAT invoices
If you sell goods or services for more than £250 including VAT, and your customer agrees, you may issue a modified VAT invoice showing the VAT-inclusive value of each standard-rated or reduced rate item.

The modified VAT invoice must show separately the total:

VAT-inclusive value of each standard-rated or reduced rate item.

VAT payable on those items

value of those items excluding VAT

value of any zero-rated items included on the invoice

value of any exempt items included on the invoice

The modified invoice must otherwise show the details required on a full VAT invoice.

If you are unable to offer either a simplified or modified invoice, you must issue a full VAT invoice.

 

[markjay]

Quote from HMRC site:
'A VAT registered supplier may be fined if they do not issue a VAT invoice when asked to do so by a VAT registered buyer.'....

So Argos are right in saying that they are not obliged to provide consumers with VAT invoices, BUT they are being unnecessarily difficult when they refuse to accept my company details and VAT number, and insist instead that because these details were not mentioned at the point of ordering, they can't be added now.

 

[markjay]

Also, we regularly purchase goods from Amazon Marketplace, and it's standard procedure for our accounts department to request a VAT invoice directly from the seller, and it always follows by email within a day or two.

So again Argos might not be actually breaking the law, but they seem to invest a lot of energy into being difficult about issuing me with a VAT invoice, and for no obvious reason.

But setting this aside... their conduct in general is perplexing.

First I am told I can get a 'manual invoice'. Then I am told it's not possible.

First I am told there is no way I can get a VAT invoice (because I did not mention the company name in the original order). Then I am told they'll send one anyway, albeit in 30 days time, and only by post.

First I am told the goods cannot be returned (because of the mysterious 'note on the file'). Then I am told they have a 30-day store returns policy.

And so it goes.

The issue is that I can't really trust any information that Argos provide. The lesson from the above is that I have to query everything they tell me. Which is time-consuming and pointless.

 

[DSM10000]

Mark

I avoid Argos for all of the reasons you have stated and more.

I have taken back faulty goods within the same day along with receipt and have been accused of using and breaking the item when it was still in unbroken plastic wrapping but clearly damaged inside, I have returned home to find re-packed goods with returns labels on them in sealed boxes, items with parts missing...............

Amazon are never a problem in terms of addressing faults etc.

 

[Dryce]

The lesson from the above is that I have to query everything they tell me. Which is time-consuming and pointless.

The lesson is that if as a business you buy from a retailer that focuses on selling to consumers then you may have some bureacratic problems because it's not what their front systems are designed for.

I think you'll find that in the real world HMRC won't give a proverbial about a missing Argos VAT invoice for a minor expense as long as there is evidence that the transaction took place .... unless they find a whole load of other stuff in your business accounts that makes them suspect that the busness is up to something naughty in its accounting practices.