Arise Sir WIGGO.

[flango]

Arthur Scargill along with Derk Robinson in the motor industry?

I trust you mean Red Robbo and not Derek Robinson the black humour novelist Both Red Robbo and Scargill came from communist party stock, coincidence? I think not

 

[Dieselman]

I trust you mean Red Robbo and not Derek Robinson the black humour novelist

Red Robbo. The man who united the workers.

 

[flango]

Of course, silly me, I should have known that I only have to watch a film to find out what really happened. Watching Alice in Wonderland should have put me off having parties but I'm still going to leave you all now to get on with prepping for tonight's bash. Happy New Year.

Don't diss it until you have seen it, then you can comment.

Watching Black Beauty always made me be careful...

Don't ever watch Bambi then

Happy New Year to all, no prep fro me our turn to be invited out this year :bannana:

 

[Dryce]

Can't disagree with you there however to single out a certain section of society and raze it to the ground then sell off the country's main assets to the benefit of the few.

Coalmining was not the only sector that disapperared.

In the 70s shipbuilding was lost. Along with steel.

How many people were employed on the railways in the early 60s compared with the early 80s and 90s.

What happened with coal mining was because the union was stronger it managed to stand against the economic tide for longer. The outcome was inevitable - it was just that with the strife in the industry the hard landing was made harder.

 

[Dryce]

But we're talking about a Government that not only did nothing to help but destroyed some industries

Those industries were losing money - damaging other parts of the economy.

Just where do you draw the line when it comes to spending current taxpayers' money or future taxpayers' money by loading the country with yet more debt supporting basket cases?

If anything the decisions were taken too late. Britain held on to steam far too long (We were stll building new steam engines in 1960!). The coal industry needed to be restructured a decade or more before it went to trench warfare between Scargill and Thatcher.

 

[Stratman]

^^^^^ Johnson Matthey were a complete basket case. They were a 'precious metals' private company, buying, selling and otherwise making money (or not) out of dealing with shiny things.

They were on the point of going bust when the government stepped in and rescued them. They said that as a gold bullion dealer their failure would hurt market confidence.

Leaving the anomaly of the public sector rescuing the private sector to maintain confidence in said private sector, I believe HMG regards plutonium and uranium as 'precious metals'

 

[Dryce]

^^^^^ Johnson Matthey were a complete basket case. They were a 'precious metals' private company, buying, selling and otherwise making money (or not) out of dealing with shiny things.

Apparently there's a special rule that says we always rescue banks

My recollection is that JM were small beer compared with what has followed at Northern Rock, RBS, and Lloyds ....

I also recall that eyebrows were raised at that time regarding the way that banks handled loans and capital reserves.

A lesson not learned ....

 

[WesLangdon]

Coalmining was not the only sector that disapperared.

In the 70s shipbuilding was lost. Along with steel.

How many people were employed on the railways in the early 60s compared with the early 80s and 90s.

What happened with coal mining was because the union was stronger it managed to stand against the economic tide for longer. The outcome was inevitable - it was just that with the strife in the industry the hard landing was made harder.

Whilst you are correct about the other industries suffering none of it was inevitable it was politically motivated decision making. Much of it was the opportunity to loot state assets, Gas, Electric, Water prime sites owned by BL as well. Public housing stock given away all in pursuit of a mad cap ideology of monetrism.

 

[Dryce]

Whilst you are correct about the other industries suffering none of it was inevitable it was politically motivated decision making. Much of it was the opportunity to loot state assets, Gas, Electric, Water prime sites owned by BL as well. Public housing stock given away all in pursuit of a mad cap ideology of monetrism.

It was seen as offloading liabilities.

Government is not good at managing stuff that involves people because it doesn't make hard nosed decisions.

So the taxpayers gets milked twice over. Once for the direct costs of subsidising the excesses of the nationalised sector and again for the ongoing damage of the rest of the economy.

It's also not good at getting a good price for assets either (with the odd exception such as 3G licences).

Arguably it shouldn't have some of these things in the first place except as a last resort contingency. What happened was that public housing became a significant burden. And it was left with heavily manned nationalised industries where it wasn't capable of making the harder rational decisions because there were so many people being maintained within these sectors.

This problem still exists with the NHS - but the balance beween value to the nation vs. costs is better balanced by keeping it part starved of resources. Cynical solution - but arguably it works reasonably.

The most significant issues of the moment are the welfare state and the public sector. Neither of which are actually (despite the grim headlines) being addressed. So our grandchildren and their children will be paying for the excesses of our generation.

 

[grober]

Well one note of cheer for this first day of 2013 the Americans would appear to have cobbled together a deal to avert falling over the fiscal cliff. BBC News - US Senate passes key deal to avoid tax rises Still not complete though so may still unwind over details on the federal budget cuts but perhaps this recent episode of brinkmanship will focus minds. It would appear that in a blinding flash of insight the politicians up on the hill suddenly realised that the majority of Americans expected them to " govern" and stop p*ssing about and that if they didn't it would not go well for them as individuals whatever political view they held. Why does it matter- well it would appear rightly or wrongly confidence in European and our own economic recovery appears to be heavily dependent on what happens in the USA who were about to move back into recession.

 

[WesLangdon]

It was seen as offloading liabilities.

Government is not good at managing stuff that involves people because it doesn't make hard nosed decisions.

So the taxpayers gets milked twice over. Once for the direct costs of subsidising the excesses of the nationalised sector and again for the ongoing damage of the rest of the economy.

It's also not good at getting a good price for assets either (with the odd exception such as 3G licences).

Arguably it shouldn't have some of these things in the first place except as a last resort contingency. What happened was that public housing became a significant burden. And it was left with heavily manned nationalised industries where it wasn't capable of making the harder rational decisions because there were so many people being maintained within these sectors.

This problem still exists with the NHS - but the balance beween value to the nation vs. costs is better balanced by keeping it part starved of resources. Cynical solution - but arguably it works reasonably.

I would argue that having these industries run at a loss worked as a subsidy to private companies, in addition when they were closed there was an enormous redundancy bill and loss of income tax receipts. The decision to close and or privatise was purely ideological and the little financial gain was squandered on Trident and militarising the Falklands, in terms of the public spending argument, can you tell me where the British companies are that do not benefit from public spending, direct or indirect.

 

[Dieselman]

I would argue that having these industries run at a loss worked as a subsidy to private companies, in addition when they were closed there was an enormous redundancy bill and loss of income tax receipts.

How can there be a loss of income tax receipts if the wages paid to those people are being paid out of Govt. funds.

You might as well cut out the middleman and save a whole tier of payments.

In addition, not all the people became jobless, they just had to do other jobs that meant harder work for less money.
No more sleeping on the night shift.

 

[WesLangdon]

It may surprise you but public employees do pay income tax, and any public expenditure has a positive multiplier effect. Yes there was over manning in the Steel Industry and terrible management /union relations in BL but Shipbuilding, Mining, the Railways the Utilities, BP, BAe even BA were all being run well run, all these bought at great expense to the public purse most flogged off for pennies.

 

[Dieselman]

It may surprise you but public employees do pay income tax

Where do their wages come from?
Them being subsidised to pay income tax is just paper shuffling at great expense and no gain for the Country.

For any Country to survive it needs to bring in wealth from outside, so just like any commercial company needs to look to reduce it's internal liabilities.
There is no reason why those in commercial businesses should support those not prepared to work properly in centrally funded jobs.

 

[verytalldave]

I would argue that having these industries run at a loss worked as a subsidy to private companies, in addition when they were closed there was an enormous redundancy bill and loss of income tax receipts. The decision to close and or privatise was purely ideological and the little financial gain was squandered on Trident and militarising the Falklands, in terms of the public spending argument, can you tell me where the British companies are that do not benefit from public spending, direct or indirect.

Are you sure money was squandered on the Falklands ? ?

Falklands to start producing oil by 2017 | Business | guardian.co.uk

 

[Brian WH]

This is turning a decent thread very Political

CLOSED