Armstrong wins to be "obliterated"

Mr E

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Lance Armstrong decides to stop defending his case against the US Anti-Drugs Agency.

Whether he did or didn't, never once in his career did he fail a test, a 2 year US Federal investigation never found evidence, and yet a person' reputation can be hung out to dry on unsubstantiated allegations.

However, the world is quite happy for someone who did fail doping tests to win Gold this year.

Apparently it's OK for the UKADA to offer immunity to other if they testify against Armstrong, yet he's not allowed to see that evidence in order to be able to mount a defence to it. If you read some of the background to other allegations made about Armstrong, you'd laugh.

I don't know whether he did or didn't - it was rife at the time - but surely there is no room for conjecture and rumour.
 

Dryce

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Whether he did or didn't, never once in his career did he fail a test, a 2 year US Federal investigation never found evidence, and yet a person' reputation can be hung out to dry on unsubstantiated allegations.
The other side.

Lance Armstrong to be stripped of Tour de France titles and banned for life as he gives up fight over drug charges - Telegraph

The significant part are the allegations are potentially quite solid and that his profile is such that they have to address it.

Not a happy situation for the sport. Particularly as this is dealing with matters that go back well over a decade.
 

Harrythedog

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I also don't know if he did or didn't take any drugs but they have certainly been chasing him for a lot of years now and you have to question the value of drug tests if the authorities are ignoring the results and going down different avenues to find out the truth.
As an aside does anyone know the procedure or stance on drug testing at the Paralympic games as most of the contestants will be on some form of medication?
 

finisterre

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I don't care who won in 1999. Or in 2009. Wiggins did well but if it turns out he was powered by youcanrunbutyoucan'thidealine then I will care not a jot. Well done Lance and if you ate invisible pills that is fine with me too. I don't get this national ownership of achievement. The people involved will know and where is the joy in drug enhanced attainment? Don't people do this stuff for the love of it?
 
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Mr E

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The other side.

Lance Armstrong to be stripped of Tour de France titles and banned for life as he gives up fight over drug charges - Telegraph

The significant part are the allegations are potentially quite solid and that his profile is such that they have to address it.

Not a happy situation for the sport. Particularly as this is dealing with matters that go back well over a decade.
I'd have to disagree with you there - at the end of the day the rules around drugs use in sport are well laid out and there is an A/B test regime. He passed all of these. Remember that these are in competition, in season, an out of season. He cannot be found guilty of drug doping within the sport without a positive test - and that never happened.

If this is to go ahead, then throw testing in the bin and rely on accusation and innuendo.

Don't forget that he and the whole US Postal team went through 2 years of Federal investigation. The aim was recover $35 million of sponsorship because of "inappropriate use of funds", and fraud, bribery and drug use were all investigated. At the end of the day, no charges have be brought and this is by one of the most aggressive investigators they have.

Somewhere along the line, the US sporting authorities are determined to nail Armstrong. Even the use of language like "obliterated" shows where these guys are coming from.

Not just bad for cycling, but bad for all sport.
 

brucemillar

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Never once in his career did he fail or not show for a drug test. He was the most tested athlete in any sport for many years both in and out of season. All of that is being ignored and disgruntled ex-team mates who did fail drug tests are having their word taken as fact.

I fail to see why they bother testing if they then simply ignore the results.

This is a sad day for the sport.
 

Dryce

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I'd have to disagree with you there - at the end of the day the rules around drugs use in sport are well laid out and there is an A/B test regime. He passed all of these. Remember that these are in competition, in season, an out of season. He cannot be found guilty of drug doping within the sport without a positive test - and that never happened.
Testing presents a huge problem to the sporting authorities.

If it was 100% effective then competitors wouldn't even try and beat the system.

Not just bad for cycling, but bad for all sport.
Well this is comeback for the rather bad legacy cycling has in this regard.

And a cynic might wonder - if the titles are taken from Armstrong and passed to the next place finishers then what would the same level of scrutiny upon them reveal.
 
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Mr E

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Testing is not 100% reliable, but sport has been happy to ban athletes who fail them.

Often, though, the parameters of testing have been altered. Take EPO for example. What was happening was the authorities developed a test for the latest EPO derivative only to find that a newer one was on the market. So they went for baseline testing and set limits for blood components - on top of testing for the actual drugs themselves.

Armstrong never failed any of these tests....


Yes, cycling has a very bad record, even dating back to the very first Tour de France where some competitors were crashing due to the high amounts of alcohol consumed in an attempt to dull the aches and pains of competition. The headlines were made by the performance-enhancing drugs, but the real damage to riders came through the regimes adopted (drugs, treatments, etc) used to stimulate recovery and healing.

But it seems to be on top of things. This year's Tours seems pretty good - even down to the energy expended by each rider being calculated and monitored to see if there were major discrepancies in performance. Unfortunately in any sport it's not about the taking part, or even the winning, any more - to make the money you need to be at the top, and when millions are involved then individuals will take all kinds of risks.
 

Nasco12

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Mr E, can you expand on this? What damage was done and how? Lots of us know about Tom Simpson and amphetamines but what other examples are there?
 

LTD

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Yep, one of THOSE !!!
Judging by the claims made by the USADSA, many more top pros should be hauled up.

After all, they are claiming LA was a ringleader and guilty of trafficking these enhancements.

Word or proof ? What do we really believe ...
 

ss201

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I don't condone drug taking in any way, but who could actually blame the top pro road cyclists for taking something they shouldn't. What they have to endure in a major tour, or just one season, would kill most footballers.

"Er, I've just been knocked off and I've scrapes all down one side and may have broken me collar bone".......

"Well, we'll check you out properly at the end of the stage. By the way, the other riders are now a mile down the road, so you'd better get your skates on if you want to catch them up............"

These are very tough lads. Remember this?

Juan Antonio Flecha and Johnny Hoogerland 2011 Tour De France car crash - YouTube

After being punted into a barbed wire fence, Johnny Hoogerland needed 37 stitches at the end of this stage - which he finished!
 

markjay

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Medical testing - of any type - is always done to find something specific.

If you test negative, it means you do not have in your blood any of the drugs you were tested for. It does not mean you have no drugs in your blood.

You can't test for drugs you don't know about.

I am not taking a view of Armstrong, and certainly the 'innocent until proved guilty' should apply, I am simply saying that not having failed a drug test is not proof of innocence. It's simply back to square one.

This is why they are not 'ignoring' test results. Just as in a police enquiry if you search and haven't found anything, it is not a reason by itself to drop the investigation. A decision has to be made whether to keep looking, or not. But not having found anything is not 'proof' of continence.
 

LTD

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Yep, one of THOSE !!!
If the claims are true then the entire professional cycling game is a bogey.

So many pro cyclists seem to have testified as to the extent of the trafficking and usage - who exactly are they ?

Armstrong is the single most drug tested cyclist, possibly athlete, on the planet. His samples are stored religiously.

Now let's clarify something. I know a bit about pharmacological testing. Here is a simple question.

If they know what he took and he has had samples taken when they should have - why have they not shown anything, even the claimed masking agents ?
 

Colin_b

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But it seems to be on top of things. This year's Tours seems pretty good - even down to the energy expended by each rider being calculated and monitored to see if there were major discrepancies in performance. Unfortunately in any sport it's not about the taking part, or even the winning, any more - to make the money you need to be at the top, and when millions are involved then individuals will take all kinds of risks.
There was a programme on BBC World Service which covered this very subject. It looked at the performance aspects of cycling in the 1st 5 minutes of the programme.

BBC - World Service More Or Less - The Tour de France and the...

To me it indicates performance of the participants in the tour is falling to wards 'normal' expectations.
 

colin.c43

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When the Tour de France came to London I was the Liaison Officer and Interpreter for the Race Director of ASO, the company that runs the Tour.
I had a unique job right at the heart of the Tour. Pity I'm not interested in cycling! (I got my current Olympic job on the back of my work on the Tour, but that's another story.)

Anyhow, one thing that struck me was how much the French HATE Lance Armstrong. Whenever his name came up the Tour officials always said that he was doping, they just hadn't figured out how to catch him.
I guess they're happy now.
 

LTD

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Yep, one of THOSE !!!
Anyhow, one thing that struck me was how much the French HATE Lance Armstrong. Whenever his name came up the Tour officials always said that he was doping, they just hadn't figured out how to catch him.
I guess they're happy now.
So they are happy winning nothing ...

Wait until they start trying to nail Miguel Indurain .............
 

Bellow

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I don't condone drug taking in any way, but who could actually blame the top pro road cyclists for taking something they shouldn't.
Anyone who believes the rules of a sport should be observed. There is no justification for cheating.

Drugs in athletic sports alienate potential audiences. Is it beyond the regulatory authorities to understand that fact and deal with it?
 

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