EuroCarParts
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Hi Guys,
As you are aware with over 100 submissions we couldn't get PAGID to answer all of the questions but there were alot of similar ones and they have selected the Top 6 (i believe a few are from members on here and MBO) So if yours is chosen, please drop me a PM and we'll arrange the prizes
1) On fitting new brake parts is there an advisory on bedding in? Is there any advantage to it?
It’s recommended to bed brakes in for the first ~100miles, the best method for doing this is by driving at various speeds applying the brakes in light applications, the most important thing to avoid during this bedding period is excessive temperatures so an aggressive driving style should be avoided. As most people cannot afford to drive around gently bedding in there brakes a normal drive style will produce the same end result. The purpose of ‘bedding in’ brake pads is to ensure conformity between pad and disc (friction pair) as in the new condition neither are totally flat (microscopically) this means that a bedded pad/disc will have a better ‘feel’/performance than an un bedded friction pair.
2) Brake pad composition has changed markedly in recent years with the banning of the use of asbestos fibres. In MB pads these were originally largely replaced with supposedly safer organic derived materials from coconutshell and cashew nuts but in the quest for performance one sees the increase in the use of sintered metal or ceramic composites. http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/112956.pdf My concern is that a degree of complacency has now arisen about the handling /servicing of brake components since "the asbestos ban" and that the newer high friction materials may equally carcinogenic if inhaled. I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on the safe handling of these materials in the DIY area. Brake manufacturers are in an ideal position to encourage safe practice and I would encourage them to increase their effort in this area.
The raw materials which are used in today’s modern brake pad formulations are strictly controlled by European legislation and although we cannot speak for all brake pad manufacturers those reputable suppliers conform with these laws for both the manufacturing personnel and the protection of the general public.
3) With so many options in the market regarding brake pads, how do we know what product is best suited to our car? I rang a parts retailer to buy some new brake pads and discs for the front. He gave me 3 seperate prices with approx £45 difference between the three. So, what would be the difference between the cheapest ones and the more expensive ones? Surely they go through the same tests and are all of the same standard, else they would be allowed to be fitted to a vehicle.
All brake pads sold within the EU must conform to the R90 regulation. As brakes are a safety critical component, this legislation was introduced to protect the end user from inefficient braking performance.
The benchmark for these tests is based upon the original equipment (OE) from the original vehicle manufacturer. These tests have a tolerance of +/- 15% of the OE to pass these tests. What you tend to find is that some of the budget brands will be closer to the 15% tolerance and OE quality pads such as Pagid will be closer to the 0% set by the OE.
Pagid and Textar as OE manufacturers actually do additional tests to the R90 requirements to ensure that their product goes beyond normal requirements.
The different brands are offered to the customer’s requirements. There are people who are price sensitive and they would tend to opt for a budget brand such as Eicher, but they are not compromising on safety if these are purchased. Other people would prefer to purchase quality brake pads such as Pagid with OE pedigree. Then there are the people who require premium brake pads – these are brands such as Textar who have all the same accessories as the OE but at a cheaper price than OE. Hence the big difference in prices between the brands.
4) When a garage tells you that you can’t replace disks/pads without replacing both, is this true or are they trying to make more money? Are there any circumstance in which you can get away with only changing one or the other?
It is strongly advised that when the brake discs are changed, the brake pads must also be changed. The reason for this is that you will not have optimum braking performance if old pads are fitted to new discs. If the old discs have worn a groove into the brake pad friction material, then there will be a gap in the old pads and will not have full contact with the brake disc.
You can change the pads and not the discs, but only if they have suitable wear life. There are minimum thicknesses involved with brake discs and if the disc falls below this, then they need to be changed. Under normal driving conditions the brake discs are required to be changed every other brake pad change i.e. a ratio of 2 sets of pads to every pair of discs.
5) i Have a E220 CDI 2002 W210.
I have to change both discs and pads some time soon.
Which pads create the least dust?
Can you recommend a set to do the job?
ECP are about to launch a new innovate product from Textar called the epad. The epad is the next generation of braking friction which was initially developed for the original equipment market. Utilising state of the art technology, the epad is abrasion resistant – this means that they are a low dust formulae for cleaner wheels and any residue will wash away easily. The epad is ideally suited for vehicles with alloy wheels or chrome wheels.
Other advantages of the epad is that the longevity of the brake pad is increased resulting in a longer service life. The epad also adheres to all of the R90 regulations and as such performs to a comparable level to a standard friction material with all the extra benefits.
6) Do drilled and/or grooved brakes really improve performance on a family road car and what other advantages/disadvantages will I see from fitting them (if any)?
To fit drilled & grooved discs onto a family road car will have different effects depending on what the vehicle is being used for. Under normal driving conditions a standard set of pads and discs would be more than sufficient for the job in hand.
If the vehicle is to be used on track days then the drilled and grooved would be more suited. The purpose of the drilling & grooves is to cool the disc down quicker in more extreme braking conditions and reduces the stopping distance. In order to ensure that the discs work to the full potential, you will need to fit an improved pad suited to the disc.
As you are aware with over 100 submissions we couldn't get PAGID to answer all of the questions but there were alot of similar ones and they have selected the Top 6 (i believe a few are from members on here and MBO) So if yours is chosen, please drop me a PM and we'll arrange the prizes
1) On fitting new brake parts is there an advisory on bedding in? Is there any advantage to it?
It’s recommended to bed brakes in for the first ~100miles, the best method for doing this is by driving at various speeds applying the brakes in light applications, the most important thing to avoid during this bedding period is excessive temperatures so an aggressive driving style should be avoided. As most people cannot afford to drive around gently bedding in there brakes a normal drive style will produce the same end result. The purpose of ‘bedding in’ brake pads is to ensure conformity between pad and disc (friction pair) as in the new condition neither are totally flat (microscopically) this means that a bedded pad/disc will have a better ‘feel’/performance than an un bedded friction pair.
2) Brake pad composition has changed markedly in recent years with the banning of the use of asbestos fibres. In MB pads these were originally largely replaced with supposedly safer organic derived materials from coconutshell and cashew nuts but in the quest for performance one sees the increase in the use of sintered metal or ceramic composites. http://www.ornl.gov/~webworks/cppr/y2001/rpt/112956.pdf My concern is that a degree of complacency has now arisen about the handling /servicing of brake components since "the asbestos ban" and that the newer high friction materials may equally carcinogenic if inhaled. I would like to see a greater emphasis placed on the safe handling of these materials in the DIY area. Brake manufacturers are in an ideal position to encourage safe practice and I would encourage them to increase their effort in this area.
The raw materials which are used in today’s modern brake pad formulations are strictly controlled by European legislation and although we cannot speak for all brake pad manufacturers those reputable suppliers conform with these laws for both the manufacturing personnel and the protection of the general public.
3) With so many options in the market regarding brake pads, how do we know what product is best suited to our car? I rang a parts retailer to buy some new brake pads and discs for the front. He gave me 3 seperate prices with approx £45 difference between the three. So, what would be the difference between the cheapest ones and the more expensive ones? Surely they go through the same tests and are all of the same standard, else they would be allowed to be fitted to a vehicle.
All brake pads sold within the EU must conform to the R90 regulation. As brakes are a safety critical component, this legislation was introduced to protect the end user from inefficient braking performance.
The benchmark for these tests is based upon the original equipment (OE) from the original vehicle manufacturer. These tests have a tolerance of +/- 15% of the OE to pass these tests. What you tend to find is that some of the budget brands will be closer to the 15% tolerance and OE quality pads such as Pagid will be closer to the 0% set by the OE.
Pagid and Textar as OE manufacturers actually do additional tests to the R90 requirements to ensure that their product goes beyond normal requirements.
The different brands are offered to the customer’s requirements. There are people who are price sensitive and they would tend to opt for a budget brand such as Eicher, but they are not compromising on safety if these are purchased. Other people would prefer to purchase quality brake pads such as Pagid with OE pedigree. Then there are the people who require premium brake pads – these are brands such as Textar who have all the same accessories as the OE but at a cheaper price than OE. Hence the big difference in prices between the brands.
4) When a garage tells you that you can’t replace disks/pads without replacing both, is this true or are they trying to make more money? Are there any circumstance in which you can get away with only changing one or the other?
It is strongly advised that when the brake discs are changed, the brake pads must also be changed. The reason for this is that you will not have optimum braking performance if old pads are fitted to new discs. If the old discs have worn a groove into the brake pad friction material, then there will be a gap in the old pads and will not have full contact with the brake disc.
You can change the pads and not the discs, but only if they have suitable wear life. There are minimum thicknesses involved with brake discs and if the disc falls below this, then they need to be changed. Under normal driving conditions the brake discs are required to be changed every other brake pad change i.e. a ratio of 2 sets of pads to every pair of discs.
5) i Have a E220 CDI 2002 W210.
I have to change both discs and pads some time soon.
Which pads create the least dust?
Can you recommend a set to do the job?
ECP are about to launch a new innovate product from Textar called the epad. The epad is the next generation of braking friction which was initially developed for the original equipment market. Utilising state of the art technology, the epad is abrasion resistant – this means that they are a low dust formulae for cleaner wheels and any residue will wash away easily. The epad is ideally suited for vehicles with alloy wheels or chrome wheels.
Other advantages of the epad is that the longevity of the brake pad is increased resulting in a longer service life. The epad also adheres to all of the R90 regulations and as such performs to a comparable level to a standard friction material with all the extra benefits.
6) Do drilled and/or grooved brakes really improve performance on a family road car and what other advantages/disadvantages will I see from fitting them (if any)?
To fit drilled & grooved discs onto a family road car will have different effects depending on what the vehicle is being used for. Under normal driving conditions a standard set of pads and discs would be more than sufficient for the job in hand.
If the vehicle is to be used on track days then the drilled and grooved would be more suited. The purpose of the drilling & grooves is to cool the disc down quicker in more extreme braking conditions and reduces the stopping distance. In order to ensure that the discs work to the full potential, you will need to fit an improved pad suited to the disc.