AV cabling / control problem..

[guydewdney]

source- 3 or 4 items (DVD, Sky, DAB, other...)

destination:-
1 x living room - at top quality - so component video from DVD / RGB from sky etc, full 5.1 sound needed.

1 x kitchen - composite OK, stereo wanted, not essential.

2 x bedroom (maybe 3x) - mono OK - composite fine, prefer 5.1 in master bedroom (but can do this with a dvd player as between us (moved in together) we have 4 DVD players )

1 x dining room, stereo ONLY (ie dab / CD etc)

BUT - want full control over each source from each location - ie want to be able to play DVD from the kitchen, view in bedroom 1, stop it in bedroom 2

99% of this is achieveable with the kit located in the living room, with the rest of the place supplied with RF / UHF - and using skylink or similar units, control is fine.

two problems -

UHF modulators are mono - not stereo (why???)

how do I get stereo from an aerial without a TV? (or do I just butcher a TV for the bits I want?)

 

[miro]

source- 3 or 4 items (DVD, Sky, DAB, other...)

destination:-
1 x living room - at top quality - so component video from DVD / RGB from sky etc, full 5.1 sound needed.

1 x kitchen - composite OK, stereo wanted, not essential.

2 x bedroom (maybe 3x) - mono OK - composite fine, prefer 5.1 in master bedroom (but can do this with a dvd player as between us (moved in together) we have 4 DVD players )

1 x dining room, stereo ONLY (ie dab / CD etc)

BUT - want full control over each source from each location - ie want to be able to play DVD from the kitchen, view in bedroom 1, stop it in bedroom 2

99% of this is achieveable with the kit located in the living room, with the rest of the place supplied with RF / UHF - and using skylink or similar units, control is fine.

two problems -

UHF modulators are mono - not stereo (why???)

how do I get stereo from an aerial without a TV? (or do I just butcher a TV for the bits I want?)

www.channelplus.com

You dont need a DVD player at all. Just get a digital movie library and buy several brands. Then allow each one to open the files on the same NAS server.

MPEG4 player

http://www.usbgear.com/newsite/USB-PRODUCT-DETAILS.cfm?sku=USBG-AIVX&catid=131&cats=131

(this is the car version but they do have a SPDIF out home version that is larger. Several of these types of machines can operate without a HDD over a lan.

NAS SERVER

http://www.yellowmachine.com/

And you can also now make a iTUNES home server using various server packages.

Channel plus has coding keypads so you dont even need a remote, you can just use a pushbutton panel built into an armrest or headboard.

Its not that hard at all. You should be cabling for RGBHV not CVBS. At least then you will get some decent options.

 

[guydewdney]

Thanks - that would sort the DVD problem - but not the TiVo problem - ie 5 minute timeshifted program, not really feasable to export to NAS, convert to mpeg4 and view remotely - on-the-fly is it?

we are more tivo wathers than dvd watchers really anyway - but have been contemplating a terabyte NAS for the dvds and work related backups...

 

[Shude]

Thanks - that would sort the DVD problem - but not the TiVo problem - ie 5 minute timeshifted program, not really feasable to export to NAS, convert to mpeg4 and view remotely - on-the-fly is it?

we are more tivo wathers than dvd watchers really anyway - but have been contemplating a terabyte NAS for the dvds and work related backups...

Did your TiVo survive then?

I am planning to floodwire my new house with network cable while it's being rewired, I have seen converters to allow COAX, scart and remote control etc to use CAT5/RJ45 so I will hopefully be able to acheive something similar to what you want without having to resort to running my own radio broadcasting station

 

[miro]

Did your TiVo survive then?

I am planning to floodwire my new house with network cable while it's being rewired, I have seen converters to allow COAX, scart and remote control etc to use CAT5/RJ45 so I will hopefully be able to acheive something similar to what you want without having to resort to running my own radio broadcasting station

Add the cost of the impedance baluns to the cost of the whole design and you will see which is more effective and reliable.

I would be adding plastic fibre though as I can see that optical control is not far away.

Cat5 is old news anyhow. Cat6e is about 4x the price and what you could look at long term seeing as data is now in the 10Gig range.

If in doubt you can use a distributed design large and small diameter conduits and draw wires.

 

[miro]

Thanks - that would sort the DVD problem - but not the TiVo problem - ie 5 minute timeshifted program, not really feasable to export to NAS, convert to mpeg4 and view remotely - on-the-fly is it?

we are more tivo wathers than dvd watchers really anyway - but have been contemplating a terabyte NAS for the dvds and work related backups...

Timeshifting, 10Gig data LAN and PC based video servers are all sold now as a DIY system. No need for a TIVO if you can capture TV from several channels at once.

Tivo is very much the closed box solution. There is no reason to think that it is the only way !

 

[Shude]

Cat5 is old news anyhow. Cat6e is about 4x the price and what you could look at long term seeing as data is now in the 10Gig range.

Cat6e is only about double the price of cat5e but requires specialist installation due to the fragile nature of the copper wire or something. Cat5e should be more than capable of doing what I want, besides which if it is installed in conduits then it can be replaced fairly easily.

Timeshifting, 10Gig data LAN and PC based video servers are all sold now as a DIY system. No need for a TIVO if you can capture TV from several channels at once.

Tivo is very much the closed box solution. There is no reason to think that it is the only way !

If you have ever used TiVo you will understand why people like it: the interface. No amount of hardware, tv channels or bandwidth will make a difference unless it's easy to use and it works for you. Ask anyone that has owned both TiVo and the more modern Sky+ and they will tell you that TiVo is superior in every way except for the ability to record more than one channel at once (and possibly also HD capability ).

If you can find me something that will do what TiVo does but better then I'm interested!

 

[richard]

I used shielded cat 5e - the shield can be useful, especially if you get close to any mains wiring .. and its as easy to work with as normal cat-5e

I also used patch cable throught the house rather than wiring cable - because its much much harder to damage - the patch cable is multi-strand rather than single core - and thus designed to be flexible

Cheers
Richard

 

[Shude]

I also used patch cable throught the house rather than wiring cable - because its much much harder to damage - the patch cable is multi-strand rather than single core - and thus designed to be flexible

You're sure about this? It is critical that I use the right stuff for the job and I know there is a difference between wiring and patch, the wiring stuff is a lot stiffer I believe. If you're saying the patch stuff is good enough then maybe I should look into it

 

[richard]

I've got 50meter runs and use it for linn multi-room, 100baseT ethernet and video baluns over different cables. AFAIK the reason the building wiring stuff exists is because its cheaper than the patch stuff, and most buildings (with wiring ducts) it never moves so it doesnt have to be flexible.

Richard

 

[agatward]

You're sure about this? It is critical that I use the right stuff for the job and I know there is a difference between wiring and patch, the wiring stuff is a lot stiffer I believe. If you're saying the patch stuff is good enough then maybe I should look into it

You should use solid core cable for infrastructure and patch cable for patching. The IDC connectors (aka punch-down) used on the back of RJ45 face plates and patch panels will only work reliably with solid core cable as they cut through the insulation and slightly into the copper core of the cable.

If it's solid core cable you want, I can source this easily. Aside from finishing my PhD, I work for a University as a network architect

You will need to make sure your cabling complies with TIA568-B (most does), and ensure you punch the terminals down in the correct order. Two of the pairs in the cable are twisted differently to the other two - this helps avoid crosstalk.

For 100Mbit/s Ethernet, your infrastructure cables should be no longer than around 90m. This allows a total of 10m for patching. For Gigabit over copper, you will need to ensure that all four pairs are working correctly. 100Mbit/s Ethernet only uses the green and orange pairs.

10Gb Ethernet over copper currently does not exist - the only currently ratified standards are over fibre optic media. The copper standard is in the progress of being ratified, requires CAT6 cable, and only supports distances of 25m. You'd also be looking at an interface card cost of >£1000.

Contrary to what Richard said, shielding does not actually make any difference for Ethernet or other balanced-line applications. The whole point of balanced-line (aka differential) transmissions is that they have extremely high noise rejection. This is why they require twisted pair cable and special drivers. The cable picks up the same noise on both cores, and the differential receivers reject common-mode noise (i.e. noise which is the same on both cores). In fact the most recent TIA specs actually specify NOT to use shielded cable!

If you can find me something that will do what TiVo does but better then I'm interested!

I'm assuming you've looked at the likes of MythTV and the "improved" media centre stuff in Windows Vista, combined with a couple of DVB-T or DVB-S cards?

Anyway, bringing this back on topic:

If it was me I'd be flood-wiring the house with CAT5e cabling (which will be good for the next 8-10 years) back to a central distribution point. In this point I would install the following:

* ADSL router / cable modem
* Hardware firewall appliance (Netscreen 5GT / Sonicwall / Cisco PIX)
* Network switch (Netgear, 3com etc. for home use)
* Telephone line + VoIP gateway
* UPS attached to a dedicated, clean supply ring main (very important!)
* Media server or other file server
* DVB backend box with at least 2 cards(for the MythTV or Windows Media stuff)

I will be doing this type of thing for myself when I get round to buying a house.

Of course if you live near me and wanted to chat about anything then send me a PM on here. If you want help with the networking side then all it would cost is accommodation and food / drink

Hope this helps,

Andy.

 

[guydewdney]

I could well be taking you up on the drink thing - I'm now in sunny somerset (porlock), where are you?

I have no problem flood wiring my house - a mate of mine (in IT) has liberated 3 boxes of cat5e for this very purpose (it was being thrown out) - and the house - old that it is - (its a water mill) has new suspended floors all round.

annoyingly I threw out a ?30 bay patch panel only a few weeks ago in a fit of lobbing everything with dust on it more than an inch thick.

video baluns - ok - they are anything from 20 odd quid each.

this goes back to the question i posed originally:-

i have three sources (in the living room) and say 4 locations.

i want to be able to view source#1 in all 4 locations simultaneously, and also be able to watch 3 different sources in three different locations. I want to be able to select which source i view from any of the locations, (ie im in bed watching tivo, and want to watch the dvd i put in the machine earlier (or select the video server etc etc)

If it was just a one location system- somthing along the lines of a scart switch box would do the job - but this often precludes the second source (or third) from viewing it at the same time.


So i think i need a box with say 8 scarts in the back of it. say ABCD in and 1234 out.

with a zapper, i could request A to 1, A to 1 and 2 A to 1-4 or whatever. then B to 3 etc etc

one video balun per out - one video balun per room...

any DIY baluns out there?

 

[agatward]

I think what you're essentially asking for is one of these plus a number of appropriate baluns:

http://www.letsautomate.com/10996.cfm

Also has the added bonus that it's rack mounted, so could fit in a 19" rack if you installed one (highly recommended that you do).

If you installed a small rack-mount mini-ITX or equivalent server alongside that, with the appropriate RS232 software (either theirs, write your own, or ask one of your IT friends to do it), you'd be able to do exactly what you needed. You could even use wireless Ethernet and an iPaq or similar to control the AV in your house

On the balun front, I do have a circuit which I designed for transmitting composite video over CAT5 with no loss; however it is an active circuit (i.e. requires power at both ends). Basically it uses two video-grade op-amps at the sending end to create a balanced, impedence-matched signal which is transmitted down a single pair on the CAT5 cable, up to 800m in length. On the receiving end, a single op-amp reverts the signal back to a single-ended one for the display device. Seriously though it's a lot of hassle and would cost about £20 to make in small quantities. I only did the circuit for part of my PhD where I needed to integrate it into a device which was doing other things too.

 

[richard]

You should use solid core cable for infrastructure and patch cable for patching. The IDC connectors (aka punch-down) used on the back of RJ45 face plates and patch panels will only work reliably with solid core cable as they cut through the insulation and slightly into the copper core of the cable.

That is a very good point - I didnt use punch down face plates, I just have RJ45 connectors on the end of the cables (or screw terminals etc, depending on the application

One of the reasons I did this (rather than putting patch panel at one end and sockets at other) is because I dont change the application of the cables often/ever - unlike in an office environment where things are patched around quite regularly - so there was no point in adding extra connectors (and remember there are some losses each time you add a connector) to the path.
Another reason was that Linn want different wiring then ethernet, so I'd have to pre-wire different cables different ways which lost me flexibility. (they want a cross-over on any in building cabling that is socket to socket)
And the final reason was its easier to man-handle the patch cable through small holes in the existing building without damaging it than the solid core.

Contrary to what Richard said, shielding does not actually make any difference for Ethernet or other balanced-line applications.

But it does make a difference for some applications ! The Linn stuff works better with shielded on long runs - and in theory its balanced for the audio side, but (a) Linn say use ftp and (b) I do get hum if I dont earth the shield - it may of course be the fact the shield is there is generating the issue for me and i could have left it out

Good Luck !

R

ps, If I was building a brand new house, then I'd flood wire it as agatward says !!

 

[miro]

Im not entirely sure I know why Coax is so evil as the trend in this thread is to use Baluns on CatX data cable. I find the whole idea defective unless the system is digital or explicitly made for that function.

Secondly, I dont see Coax costing more than the baluns !

If anything I would be running plastic or glass optical at the minimum.

 

[richard]

Im not entirely sure I know why Coax is so evil as the trend in this thread is to use Baluns on CatX data cable. I find the whole idea defective unless the system is digital or explicitly made for that function.

Secondly, I dont see Coax costing more than the baluns !

If anything I would be running plastic or glass optical at the minimum.

Miro, using products like this :-
http://www.y3kvision.com/acatalog/3k55.html
(look at the 2nd product on the page, £60 for a pair of them)
You can run 4 coax's worth down one CAT-5 cable, so the CAT5 is cheaper than the coax if the run length is long. Also, in many commercial applications the CAT5 is already there .. And for CCTV video it is every bit as good..

Then there is the 'laziness' factor - i.e i have to get special tools to put bnc connectors on the end of the cable (ok, so its not that hard!!)

The trouble with plastic/glass optical, is theres a whole bunch of standards for that , and you have to be even more careful than CAT-5 - although, saying that, as you probably wont want to run 10G-Ethernet or STM64 around your house, I guess that the fibre quality isn't a real issue, but the diameter may be and terminating it is much more specialist ..

Cheers
Richard

 

[Piff]

Wow, this is all very "tech speak" for me. I am about to wire a large extension to my house and re-wire the house at the same time.
I found the thread interesting reading but some of it went straight over my head.
I had intended to wire coaxial cable to each room together with 2 pair telephone cable. Recent discussion with brother-in-law has pursuaded me to run 2 x cat 5e cable to each room also, although from reading this thread i'm not sure if I need the coaxial and telephone cables in addition to the 2 x cat 5e.
I'm hoping to "future proof" the house for 10 - 20 years.
Current needs are:-

• Broadband internet access from 4 rooms (although we have wireless also)
• TV/video/sky distribution from 1 location to 6 locations
• Telephone in 6 locations

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[guydewdney]

telephone can quite happily be run over cat 5 with no modification or baluns or whatever - telephone cable is crude twisted pair anyway - so you can cut that bit out.

DONT buy cat5 / cat5e new - ask any of your IT mates to liberate some from work - its very cheap, and most companies are throwing out cat5

distributing video over 6 places from one 'start' - just use one pair with a balun? that leaves plenty of spare for other stuff...

 

[Piff]

telephone can quite happily be run over cat 5 with no modification or baluns or whatever - telephone cable is crude twisted pair anyway - so you can cut that bit out.

DONT buy cat5 / cat5e new - ask any of your IT mates to liberate some from work - its very cheap, and most companies are throwing out cat5

distributing video over 6 places from one 'start' - just use one pair with a balun? that leaves plenty of spare for other stuff...

What's a balun? (in laymans terms please).

 

[agatward]

What's a balun? (in laymans terms please).

A device designed to convert between BALanced and UNbalanced electrical connections. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balun