average speed limits onm motorways

[ckember]

In the last week I have driven on the M1, M2, M25, A1M and the M6, all have some major road works at the moment. and all have average speed limits.

What surprises me is the differences in these limits, which are either 40mph or 50mph, and don't seem to have any bearing on the type of works being done.

The 50mph limits have been on sections with contra flows just as the M1 stretch around Luton which is 40mph, However further up the M1 the limit is 50mph, also with a contra flow

Who decides on the limits and if 50mph is safe on one stretch why is 40 mph the max on another?

Are the limits being set to catch drivers out? Should the limits be changed depending on traffic flow?

 

[Flasheart]

Temporary speed restrictions are often put in place to encourage safer driving during road repairs with the intention of making the area safe for those working there.

I hardly think the limits are set to catch drivers out - if a driver is not alert enought so register the change in speed limit then maybe they shouldn't be on the road. Maybe the limits should be changed depending on traffic flow though and further reduced as traffic builds up.

 

[Rose Chap]

I've noticed that too on the M4 and M5. Whereas previously the speed limit for roadworks was 50 now the default speed seems to be 40.

Whilst I don't object to the principle of a lower limit around roadworks to protect those working, like ckember I wonder why there is a discrepancy between 40 and 50 zones in pretty much identical roadworks on different motorways, and why we are required to drive at 40 mph, through roadworks, enforced with speed cameras, when there is absolutely NO work taking place at all.

Surely the public at large would have greater faith in both the construction firms and the local law enforcement if temporary speed limits were only applied when necessary?

 

[Flasheart]

Quite right - its everyone elses fault but ones own that one can't drive at a steady speed. People manage to drive at differing limits in town - a 30mph here, a 40mph there even down to 20mph. Why does it suddenly throw people on a motorway to be able to drive at differing limits - i don't understand the problem.

I would suggest that they keep the limits there when you see no one working because of the arguement you yourself have used, people are incapable on motorways of dealing with varying speed limits.

 

[Gollom]

Quite right - its everyone elses fault but ones own that one can't drive at a steady speed. People manage to drive at differing limits in town - a 30mph here, a 40mph there even down to 20mph. Why does it suddenly throw people on a motorway to be able to drive at differing limits - i don't understand the problem.

I would suggest that they keep the limits there when you see no one working because of the arguement you yourself have used, people are incapable on motorways of dealing with varying speed limits.

I always look forward to your angry responses.

I think if you go back and read very carefully, the question was why are some limits 40mph and some 50mph. Unless I am losing the plot or you are seeing threads that I am not, neither OP suggested that the limits were unfair etc.

Does anybdy know the answer to the question that was actually posed? I have wondered myself.

This is not an objection to speed limits, an admission that I am incapable of obeying the law or anything other than a desire to learn something.

Flame away!

 

[Flasheart]

I would suggest that as they are placed by different authorities they have different ideas on what would be a safe speed for people to be travelling at only a few feet away from people working. I would suggest it could possibly reduced to 40mph when the lanes are of restricted width.

Not sure why you think my responses are angry, i am not the one posting in red ink

 

[robert.saunders]

With the roads mentioned in post 1, there is only 1 authority that is in question - Highways Agency. The contractor may have a view I would think.

However, I do wonder if volume of traffic has a bearing, and also number of lanes prior to roadworks and also during (ie only 1 lane closure, up to 2, varying etc) and perhaps if the road is well lit or not?

Rob

 

[Spinal]

I'm afraid I disagree with your explanation flasheart; I was driving to luton and stansted (M1, M11) and the limits are 40 and 50 fairly randomly. In one place on the road back from stansted, there even is a 30. It was 10-something in the evening, not a single person out of a vehicle for miles, and not a worker in sight. The roadworks usually have floodlights at night, and there were none. On the other hand, there were quite a few average speed cameras...

 

[glojo]

I believe these limits are set on expected, or potential hazard\risk, but I think they are bonkers.

I cannot understand why the national speed limit for a narrow, high banked country lane is 60mph, but on an empty motorway with unattended, alleged roadworks we are faced with either a 40, or 50mph restriction? We must protect any workers that are present on our motorways, but when they are not present, then surely these limits can be lifted?

Going very slightly off topic
Local Police in Devon are impressed with the SPEC cameras on the M5 at junction 30. With the old instant 'flash' I've got you type speed camera they would have expected hundreds of prosecutions, but with these new cameras, they state the figures are in the 'tens' Drivers appear to comply more with the limits when they are aware of these new type cameras?

John

 

[ckember]

May I add a further note, that was also pointed out by the right honourable JC on Top Gear in the last series. The road works on the A40 in Oxford last year had a 30 limit but for some unknown reason they also had a convoy in operation at 10mph, what was the extra risk to workers, none. Just Oxford Council being a pain in the A**E

When in these schemes I have taken to using the speed limiter feature so that there is no way I can go above the posted speed through the road works.

 

[BenzComander]

When was the last time you saw anybody working in the motorway road works you travel through?

 

[Flasheart]

I'm afraid I disagree with your explanation flasheart; I was driving to luton and stansted (M1, M11) and the limits are 40 and 50 fairly randomly. In one place on the road back from stansted, there even is a 30. It was 10-something in the evening, not a single person out of a vehicle for miles, and not a worker in sight. The roadworks usually have floodlights at night, and there were none. On the other hand, there were quite a few average speed cameras...

What would your suggestion be?

 

[guydewdney]

I dont understand, quite frankly, why theres a restriction of 40 or 50 anyway - we are all, by definition, capable of controlling our cars on a normal carriageway (A road) at 60 mph... the pedestrians / dog walkers / children / horses are capable of dealing with this sort of traffic.

So - aparantly, the adult, trained, workforce who are used to (in the main) of working on a road, are not 'safe' - even though they wear hi-viz jackets, and are behind bright orange cones?

I do not, genuinely, understand why. Its not even like there are distractions like traffic lights, schools, speed limit changes, junctions, pedestrian crossings etc to concentrate on - just the flat, straight, bit of M way in front of you. - maybe this IS the issue - people falling asleep?

See the same sort of work in the continent - no jams, hard working force who know what to do, and little to no disruption.




Im just glad I dont live in the south east any more

 

[Dieselman]

Guy
I'm surprised by your post. The reduced speed limit is to protect eh workfoce in the event that a driver loses control or there is an accident involving several vehicles.
If the traffic is travelling slower the risk of an accident is reduced and if one does happen the chances of flying debris and carrerring vehicles is also less.

How would you like to be working in a motorway lane with cars going by int henext lane at 80mph? Oh, of course the road cones will protect you..

 

[Spinal]

What would your suggestion be?

It would be fairly cynical of my to feel that after protecting the roadworkers, its easier (and cheaper) to leave the speed limits on - in fact, its so MUCH cheaper that it actually MAKES money... hmmm

On a similar note, the new average speed cameras work quite well when there is a bit of traffic because people end up in queue's waiting behind others, and everyone ends up going at the same speed . It might be interesting to compare the rates at which average speed cameras get deployed versus those at which the older "flashing" gatsos... Cynical little me would predict that the obviously less effective gatsos were getting deployed at a much faster rate than the average speed cameras... Oh wait, aren't Gatsos STILL being littered around, even though the new specs technology seems so much more efficient bringing people under the speed limit (as a pose to charging those over the limit)

Cynical Michele

 

[Dieselman]

It would be fairly cynical of my to feel that after protecting the roadworkers, its easier (and cheaper) to leave the speed limits on - in fact, its so MUCH cheaper that it actually MAKES money... hmmm

On a similar note, the new average speed cameras work quite well when there is a bit of traffic because people end up in queue's waiting behind others, and everyone ends up going at the same speed . It might be interesting to compare the rates at which average speed cameras get deployed versus those at which the older "flashing" gatsos... Cynical little me would predict that the obviously less effective gatsos were getting deployed at a much faster rate than the average speed cameras... Oh wait, aren't Gatsos STILL being littered around, even though the new specs technology seems so much more efficient bringing people under the speed limit (as a pose to charging those over the limit)

Cynical Michele

Cost is the reason. Specs cameras have to be permanantly sited and networked back to the control centre, Gatso need to be plugged in and voilla.

 

[ckember]

Guy
I'm surprised by your post. The reduced speed limit is to protect eh workfoce in the event that a driver loses control or there is an accident involving several vehicles.
If the traffic is travelling slower the risk of an accident is reduced and if one does happen the chances of flying debris and carrerring vehicles is also less.

How would you like to be working in a motorway lane with cars going by int henext lane at 80mph? Oh, of course the road cones will protect you..

But these days road cones seemed to replaced by large metal/water filled barriers are erected to stop vehicles crashing into the workforce.

Does anyone know what the injury stats caused by vehicles passing the road works are when speed limits of 50-60mph are used, compared to 30-50mph limits.

I have the utmost respect for the work force being so close to major traffic flow, but when the work force have gone, why can't the limits be raised.

As a nation we still don't have 24hour road repairs as in other countries.

Here we are governed by CDM regulations which govern many of the HSE practices for building projects in this country. These are to blame for not having 24 hour repairs, as someone has to be onsite to check HSE is done correctly. In the last 5-10 years HSE has gone mad and this has spilled over to speed limits set around road works. It is all down to WHO IS ACCOUNTABLE if an accident does happen, they are trying to legislate for any type of accident you can think off.

So if a car is travelling at 50mph hits a pot hole and a stone is flicked into the air and hits someone working on another pot hole. Who is to blame, the council for letting the pot hole get there in the first place or the driver for doing 50mph? If that same stone hits another car and smashes a windscreen causing the car to swerve and the driver gets injured who gets the blame, the driver of the car that hits the pot hole, or the driver that crashes.

 

[Dryce]

we are all, by definition, capable of controlling our cars on a normal carriageway (A road) at 60 mph... the pedestrians / dog walkers / children / horses are capable of dealing with this sort of traffic.

By definition we may legally drive our vehicles up to the speed limit. Capability on the other hand is another matter entirely.

And no - horses are not capable of deakling with this sort of traffic either (occasionally horses don't seem to be capable of dealing with any traffic at all).

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I know a few people that actually work on resurfacing motorways so I'll see if I can find an answer. I suspect the variation between 40mph and 50mph is probably something to do with the width of the lanes though.

The topic seems to have also covered whether the lower speed limits should be dropped when road workers aren't working. I guess there are a number of reasons for leaving the reduced limits in place even when people aren't working:

• Road workers are less likely to work during peak hours simply due to the increased danger. However the higher volume of traffic will mean that the roadworks present a greater risk to road users too, and even if there aren't workers in the road, it would be sensible to leave speed restrictions in place to protect them too?
  
• Lanes may be narrower, which with the difference in speeds between HGVs and cars travelling at normal speeds (56mph vs 70+mph) could cause problems, if misjudged. Safer for everyone to be going at 50mph.
  
• Lots of distraction all around through roadworks as there lots to look at. Holes in the ground, people, machinery, piles of stuff, etc.
  
• The might be holes in the barriers which may present a risk of a vehicle passing to the opposite carriageway in the event of an accident.
  
• Heavy plant, machinery, and other 'heavy' items may present a greater risk in the event of accident as they won't be surrounded by crash barriers like ordinary permanent bridges and lamposts, etc.
  
• Cameras would have to be adjusted each time the limit changes, and leaves a grey area open for saying the signage still said "XXmph" in the event of an appeal. How would it be proven?
  
• The times that road workers work may not be fixed everyday, and so swapping and changing would be impractical.

To be honest, I don't mind slowing down to 40mph or 50mph if it means that those people working on the roads are safer - it's an incredibley dangerous job. If it also means that I and other road users are safer, then a few extra minutes aren't really going to concern me.

Bobby - advocate of the red and hot one with a big fork - Dazzler

 

[guydewdney]

Dieselman - the point of my post was to highlight the fact that theres little difference between the workforce (trained professionals) and joe public on a B road....

On the B road, there are distractions and bends, on a m way there arnt. So why, all of a sudden, do we need to slow for the workforce? If its dangerous to drive over 50mph within 6 feet of a pedestrian, then why are there 60mph limits anywhere? ditto 40 / 70...? good for goose/gander? By this argument, the national speed limit should be 40mph.....