B20 Biodiesel availability at London filling stations?

[GeeJayW]

I am a scientist by training, so yes, I have a fair grip on the material. There is definitely room for debate on what the raw ingredients for 20% bio fuel should be i.e. it doesn't have to come from used cooking oil entirely. Higher Na content doesn't necessarily translate to damaged components or a reduction of service life, regardless of your opinion. You're using B7 fuel at a minimum today and B15 is now available, as you shared earlier.

Will an extra 5% damage components? I'm afraid neither you nor I can confirm this.

The report you referenced/linked indicated UCO as the source for B20, hence my comments on its value.

With over 25-years experience of fuels R&D for one of the major oil companies (I are an engineer with more than a little knowledge of fuel injection equipment ) I have a reasonable awareness of the range of alternative bio-diesel materials.

 

[Screwdriver]

Yes of course, UCO should probably not be the sole ingredient. Would you feel comfortable using the B15 diesel you mentioned was available on a regular basis?

If so, and if proven safe, perhaps B15 should be mandated? The goal for this petition is (hopefully) to drive parlimentary debate on what the safest % blend is and then to adopt it nationally as a stepping stone to pure electric propulsion. I'm not wed to 20% but am yet to find any evidence that B20 is harmful. If you can find this, given your impressive background, please do share.

 

[GeeJayW]

Would I be happy to use B15 regularly?
Not really.

If the car systems and associated materials were designed from the outset to be compatible with B7+, then my concerns about elastomers, effect on after-treatment and injection systems durability, filtration systems and so on might be reduced. There are also compatibility issues to be resolved with greases and oils. Fuelling a bunch of cars with B7+ Running them around and then looking for potential problems is weak.

Some legacy diesel vehicles are not compatible with B7+ and owned by folks who were encouraged to take on diesel cars on the reducing CO2 initiative. Forcing these to now run on B20 (nearly 300% more bio material in the fuel by the way) and then pay for any consequences is frankly a bit harsh. As it is those of us that run diesel cars are now effectively being made by the environmental lobby to feel guilty for making that choice.

I would need to see the results from a very comprehensive testing program across the car parc to convince me of widespread applicability of high dose bio diesel. I would also need to see a comprehensive 'well to wheels' life-cycle analysis for the bio materials. By the time all this is done, my guess is that diesel cars might well be a dead duck anyway, especially in cities.

There is so much political spin going on in this area and a lot of vested interests that include those that want get into/stay in public office, those that want funding for research, those that want to get into the bio recycling business, those that want to open up markets for virgin bio feedstocks and those who are pushing for widespread electrification of the road transport system.

So as it is I remain uncomfortable with B7+. By far the best route towards improved urban air quality is to reduce the number of vehicles on city roads.

If on the other hand B20 became mandated, then the question is partially moot as there would be no choice. I probably wouldn't be happy about it, but I've reached an age where I'm allowed to be grumpy about things.

 

[Bellow]

Can't quite figure out the OP's motivation.
If cleanliness of the engine is paramount use a fuel additive and sump oil from a manufacturer who can demonstrate their products achieve this.
If it's ecologically driven, then as per GeeJayW's earlier post, bio fuels aren't the answer (for the reasons he gives).
I can't remember the proportion of bio in the fuels that caused the oil problems but the problem was such that on cold start the oil was so congealed as to be picked up by the crankshaft as one big lump with none available at the pump pick up. Catastrophic failure occurred with 30 seconds. If bio fuels (as per GeeJayW's assertion) have been abandoned, then the research into oil compatibility probably is too.

By far the best route towards improved urban air quality is to reduce the number of vehicles on city roads.
.

And/or - remove speed humps - but not enough will adhere to the speed limit.
Use a smaller car - a Twizzy is big enough to get one or two across a city. Ditto a fortwo delivering twice the mpg of even the most frugal large saloons hence half of all pollutants.
Stop bodging EGR, swirlflaps, etc, that are there precisely to control emissions.

The above is not aimed at the OP but do we get the laws we deserve? Probably.

 

[Screwdriver]

Can't quite figure out the OP's motivation.
I can't remember the proportion of bio in the fuels that caused the oil problems but the problem was such that on cold start the oil was so congealed as to be picked up by the crankshaft as one big lump with none available at the pump pick up. Catastrophic failure occurred with 30 seconds. If bio fuels (as per GeeJayW's assertion) have been abandoned, then the research into oil compatibility probably is too.

The motivation is to drive debate on increasing Biofuel quantity above 7% to a level that is proven to cause no harm, while reducing fossil fuel consumption and emissions, whatever that level may be. This would serve as a stepping stone to electrification which is a few years away from achieving critical mass.

As far as the dramatic example you can't recollect goes, the blend was almost certainly higher than the B20 blend I and the GLA study are advocating.

 

[Bellow]

The motivation is to drive debate on increasing Biofuel quantity above 7% to a level that is proven to cause no harm, while reducing fossil fuel consumption and emissions, whatever that level may be. This would serve as a stepping stone to electrification which is a few years away from achieving critical mass..

Pretty sure bio fuels are dead in the water. Apart from impinging on food production, wouldn't it just be a distraction to the goal of electrification?

As far as the dramatic example you can't recollect goes, the blend was almost certainly higher than the B20 blend I and the GLA study are recommending.

It was more than one occurrence and while I cannot remember the percentage of bio in the fuels, that does not extrapolate to ''almost certainly higher than the B20''.

How, BTW, does the more frequent oil changes fit with the environmental brief? Fully recycled?

 

[Screwdriver]

It was more than one occurrence and while I cannot remember the percentage of bio in the fuels, that does not extrapolate to ''almost certainly higher than the B20''.

How, BTW, does the more frequent oil changes fit with the environmental brief? Fully recycled?

And I quote from the study: Aside from an immediate fuel filter change when starting on B10 B20, no change to the maintenance schedule is normally necessary.

 

[neilrr]

I should add that all the samples of esterified UCO (used cooking oil) that I had analysed (during an industry project that included the DoT as a partner) had very high salt levels. In my view B20 made from such materials is likely to be damaging to fuel injection equipment, reducing component service life.

There are different ways to make BD & to finish it, one being water washing. Wouldn't that eliminate virtually all salt?

 

[GeeJayW]

There are different ways to make BD & to finish it, one being water washing. Wouldn't that eliminate virtually all salt?

Maybe, perhaps you could share some knowledge or maybe a link...

 

[GeeJayW]

And I quote from the study: Aside from an immediate fuel filter change when starting on B10 B20, no change to the maintenance schedule is normally necessary.

'Normally' necessary.... What does that mean exactly?
As I mentioned before, that 'study' is full of contradictions. I'm not going to discuss it further, but it has IMHO been written for a purpose other than as an objective discussion on the suitability of B20 as a transport fuel.

 

[neilrr]

Maybe, perhaps you could share some knowledge or maybe a link...

There's a fair bit of info on Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum - Index &/or Vegetable Oil Diesel Forum

2 stage no titration with or without water washing is the preferred method of making BD at the mo.

 

[a111r]

The OP's manual instructs that he can add c.20% petrol to his diesel, when it's cold.
All BS EN ISO pre-dated, of course.

I'm sure we'll have some more opinions and conjecture posted about polymerisation.

 

[219]

The OP's manual instructs that he can add c.20% petrol to his diesel, when it's cold.
All BS EN ISO pre-dated, of course.

I'm sure we'll have some more opinions and conjecture posted about polymerisation.

I'm not so sure about modern fangled CDI Diesels , but back in the 60's & 70's when my dad had his fleet of approx 50 Bedford TK tipper trucks , we used to go as high as 50:50 mix of petrol and Diesel in the depths of winter ; and also in the Caterpillar BTD6 and BTD9 machines .

Accepted practice in those days .

 

[a111r]

And I quote from the study: Aside from an immediate fuel filter change when starting on B10 B20, no change to the maintenance schedule is normally necessary.

Not the best advice to change it 'immediately'. Any solvent effect of this weak bio blend won't have started to affect any residue left in the fuel tank.
Two or three weeks of use would be better, just in case it happens.

 

[a111r]

Another issue (especially with recycled vegetable oils) is producing biofuel that actually fully complies with EN:590 (diesel) .

Surely BS EN 14214, the technical product standard for bio diesel, would not be extant if the requirements of EN590 could be met?

 

[a111r]

There are different ways to make BD & to finish it, one being water washing. Wouldn't that eliminate virtually all salt?

Indeed it would. Na+, being ionic, would / should have been washed out.
This would have been present from the soap generated in the trans esterification reaction and not fully removed.

 

[GeeJayW]

Surely BS EN 14214, the technical product standard for bio diesel, would not be extant if the requirements of EN590 could be met?

Yes, though of course there are some areas of overlap and difference. Water content for example (with greater potential for water uptake in BD and a water washing stage to remove salt/soap) a higher limit is permitted for FAMEs than for conventional diesel.

At 5% concentration, the various differences are probably negligible in the final fuel. At higher doses maybe not.

Comparative table here:
Biodiesel standards / specification

This looks like a decent background discussion/summary of the standards, though it's from a few years ago.
https://ec.europa.eu/energy/intelli...biofuel_standards_for_transport_in_the_eu.pdf

 

[neilrr]

GJW,

There's BD & then there's BD.

There are many people on those 2 forums I mentioned in #31 (& even possibly here) running BD100 in modern diesels for years without any problems. Are you able to test BD now? Perhaps a couple of people who are making it now could supply you with a sample.

 

[GeeJayW]

There's BD & then there's BD.

Exactly. How it's produced, by whom, where does it come from, who manages the quality are all part of the issue.

There are many people on those 2 forums I mentioned in #31 (& even possibly here) running BD100 in modern diesels for years without any problems.

Good for them.

Are you able to test BD now? Perhaps a couple of people who are making it now could supply you with a sample.

No, I'm not in a position to carry out tests (I'm retired). In any case testing fuel (samples) doesn't in itself address the wider issues such as the real environmental credentials of bio-fuel production or the potential impacts on food-chain, water useage, mineral leaching etc..

 

[a111r]

All those here and elsewhere making biodiesel are using UCO. Rough sums indicate you can attribute it a carbon neutrality of 75%, fwiw.
That's far better that shipping 1000's of MT of UCO 1000's of nautical miles (on bunker fuel) to then burn it in power stations.

As an aside, whilst I've never been a fan of veg. running it's a fact that now common rails are bangers, people are running them on veg/petrol blends. There's a Facebook group for them.