Bathroom Lights

[imadoofus]

OK, here's another non-Mercedes related question.

My bathroom has four recessed halogen spots in the ceiling, and the ventilator fan is on the same circuit, so when you turn the lights on, the fan runs.

Recently, the lights have started to not come on intermittently. Sometimes you have to pull the switch cord several times before they come on (the fan has the same problem).

When they are on, one (I think only one) of the lights flickers slightly.

What might be the cause?

TIA

PJ

 

[television]

The loading is to much for the switch,, change it for a higher rated one, the contacts are arcing.

It will be in the switch, one of the 2 connections could be lose or just need tightening

 

[mattc]

how old is the setup? are the halogens LV or standard? my guess is the hardwiring is fine but the components are on their way out - change them. of course you are not allowed to do this yourself as the bathroom is a wet area covered by part p of the building regs

 

[Natalie]

I too have recessed halogens in my bathroom ceiling with two extractor fans. Two of the four lights would fail intermittently, then the lot would go, sounds like a similar problem. I called in Mattc (quite a handy chap!) and he went into the loft and with some jiggery pokery he sorted it. I guess he needs to add what he did with some posh, advanced vocabulary!

Over to you Mattc!

Already beat me to it!

 

[imadoofus]

how old is the setup?

A couple of years

are the halogens LV or standard?

Standard, I think. Each one has a plastic box attached to the fitting, which is maybe 10cm x 3cm

my guess is the hardwiring is fine but the components are on their way out - change them.

Which components?

Do you suppose it's related to an intrermittent buzzing coming from the bedroom wall, a little above the switch? This wall is not shared with the bathroom.

 

[television]

Do you suppose it's related to an intrermittent buzzing coming from the bedroom wall, a little above the switch? This wall is not shared with the bathroom.[/quote]


If its buzzing when that are on it the switch arcing or lose wire on that switch

 

[imadoofus]

If its buzzing when that are on it the switch arcing or lose wire on that switch

I've opened the switch boxes on both sides of the wall, and it's not the connections in there. It sounds like it's coming from about eight or ten inches above the switch. It buzzes whether or not the lights are on.

I've taken the fuse out.

 

[nickcc101]

If the fan/lights are on a seperate circuit it could be a loose connection on the mcb at the consumer unit.

 

[imadoofus]

If the fan/lights are on a seperate circuit it could be a loose connection on the mcb at the consumer unit.

They aren't.

 

[jadefox]

Be VERY careful - I don't want to be alarmist but often cheaper halogens have a motor behind them (transformer) which can overheat and burn out. You need to unclip the lights one by one and gently pull them out to see if you can see a box behind and check there is no charring of the wires etc.

A house in a town down the road from us has just burnt down because of that exact problem; they had halogens with transformers which were fitted into a loft conversion and one of them burnt out causing a massive fire which took the house next door along with it to. My step dad who is a builder also has had problems with these burning out in the past.

It should be that if you have a problem with a transformer or halogen burning that the electric trips out, but often the systems are older and not so efficient.

Please make sure you get it checked out - it's probably nothing - but something you should be aware of.

 

[imadoofus]

The lights have been in for a couple of years, and I had a poke around in the attic yesterday, and nothing seemed burned or charred.

 

[television]

Buzzing is arcing, there will be a junction box near by where they all join together and it could be in there.

If it is buzzing just above the switch is there a poor join in the cable in the wall

 

[mattc]

So the buzzing is in the wall, ABOVE the switches you have checked? Malcolm; would you suspect there is a "chocolate box" connector or some such above the switch hidden in the wall cavity (is is a hollow, partition wall or solid brick?) that is not up to the job/loose wire? Could also be a bumble bee (only kidding- I hope).

on a serious note there would not USUALLY be anything other than the hard wiring from the switch to the lighting unit (if its loop in) or to a junction box, typically in the to roof above the lights/fans etc. so get a pro to check it out properly - walls do not normally buzz!

The 10 x 3 boxes are tranformers; Jadefox is correct. often these are cheap components that fail. as they fail they heat up and can start fires. Dont want to be alarmist but get them checked/changed if necessary.

 

[imadoofus]

walls do not normally buzz!

Yeah, that's what I thought

It's only started this morning, so I thought I'd talk to you lot first.

 

[television]

So the buzzing is in the wall, ABOVE the switches you have checked? Malcolm; would you suspect there is a "chocolate box" connector or some such above the switch hidden in the wall cavity (is is a hollow, partition wall or solid brick?) that is not up to the job/loose wire? Could also be a bumble bee (only kidding- I hope).

on a serious note there would not USUALLY be anything other than the hard wiring from the switch to the lighting unit (if its loop in) or to a junction box, typically in the to roof above the lights/fans etc. so get a pro to check it out properly - walls do not normally buzz!

That sadly that is my thoughts , a chocklate block "sugar bit" for Svensk . Its quite easy to take off the switch and goin a pull wire to the wires and pull it up into the loft to see

 

[GrahamC230K]

how old is the setup? are the halogens LV or standard? my guess is the hardwiring is fine but the components are on their way out - change them. of course you are not allowed to do this yourself as the bathroom is a wet area covered by part p of the building regs

Depends on how you interpret the regs. I have been keen to ensure I adhere to regs but have mostly found that that part p regs are often interpretted that many areas are out of bounds, which reading the official material I have been able to find isn't the way I read them for most regular household tasks.

I interpret that even though the bathroom is a wet area, so long as you are repairing or replacing the lights, not moving them nor changing or adding circuits, you are fine.

http://www.partp.co.uk/files/odpm consumer booklet.pdf

If you read page two:

* You don't need to notify regards repairs, replacements or maintenance.

* You can also add power points, lighting points or other alterations to exisiting circuits so long as they are not special areas like kitchens, bathrooms etc.

For instance I recently changed some brass coloured Ring Halogen eye ball lamps in my bathroom for the exact same model in chrome. I made no change to the circuit, this was as I see it a direct replacement (and in Zone 3 anyway).

In my non qualified position I was also able to clear the loft insulation the necessary distance away from them as per the direct instructions that the house builders had obviously ignored.

Meanwhile my latest project is in the conservatory where building regs go out the window and I have employed a spark!

Is there better official part p documentation anywhere that contradicts how I have read the consumer guide?

 

[ukcodger]

So the buzzing is in the wall, ABOVE the switches you have checked? Malcolm; would you suspect there is a "chocolate box" connector or some such above the switch hidden in the wall cavity (is is a hollow, partition wall or solid brick?) that is not up to the job/loose wire? Could also be a bumble bee (only kidding- I hope).

on a serious note there would not USUALLY be anything other than the hard wiring from the switch to the lighting unit (if its loop in) or to a junction box, typically in the to roof above the lights/fans etc. so get a pro to check it out properly - walls do not normally buzz!

The 10 x 3 boxes are tranformers; Jadefox is correct. often these are cheap components that fail. as they fail they heat up and can start fires. Dont want to be alarmist but get them checked/changed if necessary.

YES YES YES They are LV Halogens and the transformers are failing. Check/Change ASAP. Get good quality replacements eg Thorn
Retired C.Eng. MIEE - General Manager for Electrical Contractor & NICEIC Qualifying Manager.

 

[jadefox]

What I can't understand about all this is that the transformers are obviously cheap or faulty goods - surely there is some regulation on the safety of things to do with electrics??! I often thought this when my step dad came back to say he'd had to change a set - it's like surely these things are going into peoples houses and causing fires - they should be looked into??!

 

[ukcodger]

Be VERY careful - I don't want to be alarmist but often cheaper halogens have a motor behind them (transformer) which can overheat and burn out. You need to unclip the lights one by one and gently pull them out to see if you can see a box behind and check there is no charring of the wires etc.

A house in a town down the road from us has just burnt down because of that exact problem; they had halogens with transformers which were fitted into a loft conversion and one of them burnt out causing a massive fire which took the house next door along with it to. My step dad who is a builder also has had problems with these burning out in the past.

It should be that if you have a problem with a transformer or halogen burning that the electric trips out, but often the systems are older and not so efficient.

Please make sure you get it checked out - it's probably nothing - but something you should be aware of.

Miss Chatterbox you are exactly right. There are installation instructions for safe(safer) location of these transformers but they don't get followed.
More recent 240 volt halogens that don't need a Tx are much better and any failures are clear as to cause - blown lamp.
On my older installation I use a commercial 250watt transformer which is wall mounted in the loft and powers all 5 LV Halogens together.

 

[jadefox]

Nice to be right about something for a change