Boiler advice... again.

[markjay]

Local firm quoted a Worcester Bosch 30DCI boiler, £2.4k all inclusive.

1. Boiler covered by 6 years parts and labour Worcester warranty.

2. Price includes power-flush and injection of inhibitor.

3. They do mention new flue, motorised valve, and cylinder thermostat.

So that's £1k less than the BG quote, and it includes power-flush (which was extra on GB's quote), and 6 years warranty (GB guy said that there was only 2-years manufacturer's warranty for their own-brand boiler).

Is the Worcester Bosch 30DCI boiler likely to be a better-built unit than the British Gas own-brand 330+ model?

Any thoughts, before I sign the dotted line?

 

[grober]

British Gas 330+ boiler is rumoured to be a rebadged Glowworm Ultracom sxi

Glowworm Ultracom 30 SXi System Boiler And Digital Programmer

and

Ultracom2 cxi: Combination Boiler >> Glow-worm

 

[markjay]

British Gas 330+ boiler is rumoured to be a rebadged Glowworm Ultracom sxi

Glowworm Ultracom 30 SXi System Boiler And Digital Programmer

and

Ultracom2 cxi: Combination Boiler >> Glow-worm

Hmm... the BG 330+ definitely looks the same as the Glowworm Ultracon 30 SXi... and (at least on this website) it is £100 than the Worcester 30CDI System Boiler.

Now looking at the website.. it seems they have a Worcester 30CDI System Boiler (which is what I have been quoted for) and Worcester 30CDI Combi Boiler, which is dearer.

If I understand correctly, given that we have a separate cylinder (located, as it happens, right under the boiler), we need the System Boiler rather than the Combi Boiler. But would there be an advantage in replacing the existing System Boiler and cylinder with a Combi Boiler - apart from the space saving from the cylinder removal? Or is the System Boiler plus cylinder a better solution?

 

[markjay]

Hmm... the BG 330+ definitely looks the same as the Glowworm Ultracon 30 SXi... and (at least on this website) it is £100 than the Worcester 30CDI System Boiler.

So between the Glowworm 30 SXI and the Worcester 30 CDI - do I go for the Vauxhall or the Merc?

 

[rossyl]

Definitely fix it.

I had the same debates about my VERY old 15yr old boiler. Fact is, once it is working your worries and concerns about boilers soon go away.

If I were you I would do what i did - use the manufacturer's one-off repair method.

I have a Vokera boiler and for approx £200 a one-off manufacturers fix inlcuded all labour, parts up to £400 ish, and as many visits as was neccessary to fix it. And a warranty on the fix. Prior to calling my manufacturer, I called two recommended boiler engineers; one tried to sell me a new boiler, the other bloke made the problem worse...I was then certain I was going to replace the boiler. I am SO GLAD I did not replace it, and for £200 my old boiler is now working well (touch wood) and saved me the £2k+ I was look at. Plus none of the hassle of replacing it.

I've had a search on Valliant, and they offer the same service:

Boiler breakdown? Fixed price repair, plus annual boiler cover^, from £199.96

If you experience a problem with your Vaillant boiler, you can get a hassle free, fixed price repair, and for added peace of mind following the repair you can also benefit from Boiler Breakdown Cover*, subject to eligibility.


You can rely on a fixed price repair to provide:

- A one off repair at a fixed rate, which can be spread over quarterly instalments, when taken with Boiler Breakdown Cover
- All call-out, VAT, labour and genuine parts for your Vaillant boiler, included in the fixed price
- A nationwide network of Vaillant Gas Safe registered engineers with the expertise and knowledge of your boiler model
- A firm appointment time, convenient to you
- Protection against boiler breakdowns following the repair, when taken with Boiler Breakdown Cover.

Terms and Conditions apply.
^ An initial 28 days exclusion period applies to Boiler Breakdown Cover.

Call FREE now on 0800 032 4597 to get a quote
Lines open: Monday to Friday 8am - 8pm, Saturday 9am - 4pm and Sunday 9am - 12pm. Calls may be recorded for quality control or training purposes.

Vaillant » Service packages



.

 

[grober]

Hmm... the BG 330+ definitely looks the same as the Glowworm Ultracon 30 SXi... and (at least on this website) it is £100 than the Worcester 30CDI System Boiler.

Now looking at the website.. it seems they have a Worcester 30CDI System Boiler (which is what I have been quoted for) and Worcester 30CDI Combi Boiler, which is dearer.

If I understand correctly, given that we have a separate cylinder (located, as it happens, right under the boiler), we need the System Boiler rather than the Combi Boiler. But would there be an advantage in replacing the existing System Boiler and cylinder with a Combi Boiler - apart from the space saving from the cylinder removal? Or is the System Boiler plus cylinder a better solution?

System boiler and hot water cylinder every time Imho

 

[grober]

Ironically the VH group who own Vaillant and Saunier Duval actually also own Glow-Worm in the UK. from their annual report:_ Positioned with a clear focus on customer benefits, the nine VH Group brands are all marketed independently. This multi-brand strategy rests on the two European brands Vaillant and Saunier Duval as well as the seven regional brands Glow-worm, AWB, Protherm, Bongioanni, Parkray, Renova Bulex and Pensotti. So you may well be getting Vaillant "technology" e.g. circular ST/ST heat exchanger if you buy glow worm. The Worchester Bosch is a completely different design with a large cast finned alloy heat exchanger which seems simpler to me but a boiler engineer would be the one to know.

 

[Rory]

If I understand correctly, given that we have a separate cylinder (located, as it happens, right under the boiler), we need the System Boiler rather than the Combi Boiler. But would there be an advantage in replacing the existing System Boiler and cylinder with a Combi Boiler - apart from the space saving from the cylinder removal? Or is the System Boiler plus cylinder a better solution?

Main advantage of a combi is you get rid of the cold water storage tank(s) in the loft so you can lag the loft to your hearts content and not worry about the tanks freezing.

Also you get mains pressure hot water which is good for showers.

But, it's a pain if someone else turns a tap on while you're showering, and it can take an age to fill a bath. My FIL lives on his own and thinks his combi is marvellous, but it's reckoned they're not so good in a house with multiple occupants, especially if there's more than one bathroom.

Combi boilers are also a lot more complicated than system boilers.

Worcester Bosch have the same £200ish fixed price repair and guarantee service as mentioned for other manufacturers earlier.

 

[markjay]

Ironically the VH group who own Vaillant and Saunier Duval actually also own Glow-Worm in the UK... so you may well be getting Vaillant "technology" e.g. circular ST/ST heat exchanger if you buy glow worm...

Hmmm... now I understand what the BG guy meant when he said that the BG Boiler was made 'by the same people who make Vaillant'...

 

[stevesey]

Definitely fix it.

I had the same debates about my VERY old 15yr old boiler. Fact is, once it is working your worries and concerns about boilers soon go away.

15 years - mere youngster. 30 year old Thorn Apollo here - as I said earlier, gas valve, big flame, heatexhanger - no fan, no electronics. Cancelled the service contract 20 years ago - and in that time it has consumed two thermocouples at about £10 a time.

Shouldn't post this should I it will probably die next week.

 

[StevenN]

If you are looking at changing the boiler please answer the following questions

How many hot water outlets (taps, showers) do you have or intend to have?
Would you describe the mains cold water as having plenty of pressure and flow?
Do you get a difference in water pressure depending on the time of day?
How many radiators do you have and are they big or small?

If you can give answers others or I will be able to advise on the correct type of boiler to use.

On the other hand I can ask vaillant if they have any engineers worth their salt in your area.
As I had posted earlier my main vaillant installer suspected other issues causing the noise.
What area is your property?

Regards

Steve

Oh and another thing google glowworm and blocked heat exchanger.
If it's the same heat exchanger as they used about 3+ years ago it can be a bit dodgy

 

[markjay]

If you are looking at changing the boiler please answer the following questions

How many hot water outlets (taps, showers) do you have or intend to have? - 9

Would you describe the mains cold water as having plenty of pressure and flow? - very low main water pressure around here since Thames Water replaced the Victorian pipework (long story)

Do you get a difference in water pressure depending on the time of day? - Don't think so

How many radiators do you have and are they big or small? - 7 small, 4 big

If you can give answers others or I will be able to advise on the correct type of boiler to use.

On the other hand I can ask vaillant if they have any engineers worth their salt in your area.
As I had posted earlier my main vaillant installer suspected other issues causing the noise.
What area is your property?

Regards

Steve

Oh and another thing google glowworm and blocked heat exchanger.
If it's the same heat exchanger as they used about 3+ years ago it can be a bit dodgy

Thanks StevenN. As things stand I am nudging towards buying the new Worcester Bosch unit.

 

[nick mercedes]

15 years - mere youngster. 30 year old Thorn Apollo here - as I said earlier, gas valve, big flame, heatexhanger - no fan, no electronics. Cancelled the service contract 20 years ago - and in that time it has consumed two thermocouples at about £10 a time.

Shouldn't post this should I it will probably die next week.

My parents have one of those, fantastic boilers, reliable and efficient, why they can't all be like that is a mystery, out combi is hopless in comparison.

 

[markjay]

Would you describe the mains cold water as having plenty of pressure and flow? - very low main water pressure around here since Thames Water replaced the Victorian pipework (long story)

3-4 years ago Thames water dug up the road as part of their Victorian pipework replacement project.

Pressure dropped instantly... we spoke to the workers and their foreman came in to the house, did some checks and scratched his head...

After some more checking, he admitted that the pressure was very low, but said he could do nothing about it - apparently Thames Water installed much wider pipes, but only up to the property boundary, so they have now new wide pipes going into old small pipes. Or this is how he explained it to us anyway.

I ways thought that if you channel a larger pipe into smaller pipe you get more pressure, not less, but apparently not so... another neighbour was told that they should replace the water pipe going into their property with larger one.

Problem is this area is all blocks of flats, and they are just as Victorian as the water piper that Thames Water replaced... digging under these old houses is probably not a great idea, definitely not a cheap one.

There are water tanks on the roof, and some flats actually use them for shower and laundry (but not for drinking water), however our flat is getting water only directly from the mains supply.

Don't really blame Thames Water, I guess this is simply yet another area where we never did manage to improve what the Victorians built a century and a half ago.

 

[StevenN]

Thanks StevenN. As things stand I am nudging towards buying the new Worcester Bosch unit.

If you are going to change go for a system or open vent boiler.
Something like the 30CDI regular.
Waste of time going Combi as your water pressure is bad and you are wanting a lot of hot water.
Don't go for a new cylinder as an unvented unit will still use the mains so again low pressure.
By using you old cylinder if you wanted to improve the working pressure you can add a pump.
you can't do this if you have a mains fed cylinder.

Shop around for the best deal on a Worcester. There are companies that will be affiliated to Worcester so offer extended warranties.

I will give you my selling price of the boiler tomorrow.
try to get a magnaclean in on the deal also.
open vent systems are more prone to sludge build up so it will extend the life on the boiler.

above all if anybody you have asked to quote didn't ask the same questions that I have then they either know all without looking or they are just looking at the easiest way to take you to the cleaners.

Steve

 

[stevesey]

My parents have one of those, fantastic boilers, reliable and efficient, why they can't all be like that is a mystery, out combi is hopless in comparison.

That's progress for you - take a simple design make it 25% more efficient, in the name of the environment, and then need to replace it every 10 years.

 

[markjay]

BG sales guy asked all these questions, they were on his laptop script.

Local guy didn't ask questions, but he has worked in our house before so I assumed he knew his way around, plus I showed him the BG spec so that he can quote likes-for-likes.

Local guy quoted 6-years part and labour Worcester guarantee, so I am assuming his firm is affiliated as Worcester apparently only provide 2-years by default.

Cylinder stays as is, and the quote is for Worcester Bosch 30 CDI System Boiler, so I take it it's the System unit and as such the one I need?

As for the boiler price, they seem to go online for around £900. So with a total cost of £2,400, this leaves the installer with £1,250+VAT (and any margin he has on the boiler itself).

Given that the £1,250 includes the power-wash, and obviously all the other fittings e.g. new flue, motorised valves, pipes, etc, all-in-all I find this quote reasonable.

If you tell me this is the case, and that the Worcester is a good unit, then this seems like a plan...

Are the Worcester-Bosh units as well-built as the Vaillant?

 

[markjay]

That's progress for you - take a simple design make it 25% more efficient, in the name of the environment, and then need to replace it every 10 years.

Yup - see my post about the Victorians...

 

[StevenN]

Worcester and Vaillant are on a par in terms of quality.

I would sell a 30CDI for £945 inc vat & standard telescopic flue
I would expect a plumber would usually charge £300 for the flush (it takes a day to do and you could hire the kit and do it yourself for £100) and £400max for the swap.
You will need a few new parts controls and valves £100 so get the price down.

It cost Mr plumber to be Gas safe and to register the boiler but £1250+vat is steep.

 

[rossyl]

My parents have one of those, fantastic boilers, reliable and efficient, why they can't all be like that is a mystery, out combi is hopless in comparison.

Because boilers used to be an "install once and maintain" item. Now they, like so many other things" are "install and bin within 8-10 years.

Everything these days seems to be built for a very fixed shelf-life. Nothing is built to last anymore...not even Mercs!