Brain Drain?!

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Spinal

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Over the last 12 months, I've noticed that just about every friend I had in college has gotten a job...

Problem is, every single one of them has gotten a job outside of the UK... Apparently, they can get better paid jobs in countries where the cost of living is lower and where engineers are respected skilled people and not the bottom of the employment foodchain.

I would love to say I disagree with them... but sadly, I too have noticed that IT/engineering jobs in the UK are stagnating - and recently have been approached by companies in Shaghai, HK, Dubai and Italy regarding positions there...

Before anyone says that these are people with no skills, that have partied for 4 years at college without studying - these are people who spent for years (and considerable sums as some of them aren't British) to study until late every night including weekends, and have Masters degree from Imperial and Oxford... not exactly West Brum college...

Why are engineers (mechanical or otherwise) not seen a skilled labourers in the UK? Why isn't this a protected field like doctors and lawyers? You wouldn't trust someone to do heart surgery if he didn't have a piece of paper on his wall, why do people trust experience alone as a qualification to build a bridge? Experience plays an important role, but there is a foundation that is needed that only formal education can provide. One cannot go without the other and vice-versa.

GAAHHHH!

Ok, rant over. Had to get it off my chest.

M.
 
A sign of the times my friend. Why is it that we no longer have many high end British sports car manufacturers? Why is it that money is not spent on developing a quality workforce here in Britain?

The answers come down to money......... it's easier to outsource than keep things on our own soil.

I agree completely about your frustrations, but if you have a workforce needing very little in terms of training, but can work very long hours because they have learnt the work on the job, probably in other countries, then those people are more desirable than someone with a university degree, sad but true. Hence the manufacturing service gets moved out there. Why is it that alot of banks have call centres in India? The same reason, cost and workforce.
 
Because everyone these days wants to be in IT, or a footballer.

Engineering is regarded as 'old fashioned'. You're not 'cool' if you want to be an engineer. Mental, but true.

Finally, are there any 'proper' engineering firms left in the UK?
 
Britain no longer manufactures much at all, so there is little need for engineers.

We have brilliant designers but manufacturing is elsewhere.
 
I agree completely about your frustrations, but if you have a workforce needing very little in terms of training, but can work very long hours because they have learnt the work on the job, probably in other countries, then those people are more desirable than someone with a university degree, sad but true. Hence the manufacturing service gets moved out there. Why is it that alot of banks have call centres in India? The same reason, cost and workforce.

But see... that's exactly my point - they got jobs outside of the UK without any experience. The companies that are moving away from the UK are the ones that have employed them!

One got a job in a large (British) oil company in Brazil... the other got a job for a bank in China (no idea why a bank), another a bank in Japan, a third for some weird company in Sweden.

M.
 
It can work the other way too - Mr E Snr was probably one of the best in his field, has patents, etc, and yet, because he lacked the formal qualifications, was effectively hounded out of his job and into early retirement because he wasn't (in their eyes) Herr Engineer E.

You need a solid combination of the two - not everyone up to their neck with qualifications can cope with the practicalities of the real world, in the same way that many accomplished and successful engineers did not spend years in academia.

However, we have adopted a shortsighted quarter-by-quarter business view in this country. It's an old cliche but I meet too many execs who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing - and particularly when it comes to a skilled workforce. We've adopted a number of policies over the last 40 years that, whether intentioned or not, have managed to arrive at a state where we have a high cost workforce with similar conditions and securities to low costs centres. Grads roll out of Uni expecting to fall into employment whether their education has prepared them for the workplace or not.

Saying that, I'm still here even though the offers from France, South Africa, China, Dubai, Singapore and US regularly come through. Apart from family commitments, the grass is rarely greener elsewhere, especially in the type of job I do. At least the family is safe to come and go, I don't have to worry about healthcare, and it's a fairly stable regime.
 
But see... that's exactly my point - they got jobs outside of the UK without any experience. The companies that are moving away from the UK are the ones that have employed them!

One got a job in a large (British) oil company in Brazil... the other got a job for a bank in China (no idea why a bank), another a bank in Japan, a third for some weird company in Sweden.

M.

Yes, Britain is in a rapid downward spiral - I suggest we should all jump ship.
 
......where engineers are respected skilled people and not the bottom of the employment foodchain.

Not really true - look at the awful jobs that some people have to do and for only the minimum wage.

I would love to say I disagree with them... but sadly, I too have noticed that IT/engineering jobs in the UK are stagnating .....

So is the entire UK economy, and many other Western economies. The problem you describe is symptomatic of the current climate where well-qualified graduates either can't find jobs or have to take "non-graduate" jobs to make ends meet. Your engineering friends are fortunate in that their skills are more portable than those of many of their peers.

Why are engineers (mechanical or otherwise) not seen a skilled labourers in the UK?

They are - it's just that demand is being surpressed by a stagnant manufacturing sector and huge cuts in public sector projects.
 
Because everyone these days wants to be in IT, or a footballer.

Engineering is regarded as 'old fashioned'. You're not 'cool' if you want to be an engineer

Couldn't agree more ^

I'd say all this started in the early eighties and successive governments have simply turned a blind eye to it all.
Too many warehouses and workshops are now either trendy flats or have been flattened to make way for even more trendy flats. No-one really makes anything anymore. :wallbash:

How many times do you hear 'British so and so, chief engineer of some German company?'
 
But see... that's exactly my point - they got jobs outside of the UK without any experience. The companies that are moving away from the UK are the ones that have employed them!

One got a job in a large (British) oil company in Brazil... the other got a job for a bank in China (no idea why a bank), another a bank in Japan, a third for some weird company in Sweden.

M.

Too many employers look at the bits of paper only.

After many years of banging on about, we're finally bringing in 18yo appentices into the consulting side. It's been going about a year, has been very positive, and they will far outshine the grads who will come in at 21. Further down the line, however, the fear is there that the lack of a piece of paper means the non-grad will lose out, even though they will probably be a better and more rounded consultant.
 
Not really true - look at the awful jobs that some people have to do and for only the minimum wage.

So is the entire UK economy, and many other Western economies. The problem you describe is symptomatic of the current climate where well-qualified graduates either can't find jobs or have to take "non-graduate" jobs to make ends meet. Your engineering friends are fortunate in that their skills are more portable than those of many of their peers.

They are - it's just that demand is being surpressed by a stagnant manufacturing sector and huge cuts in public sector projects.

But see... they aren't... When I applied for a loan, my bank told me that engineers were not classified as "skilled labourers".

Similarly, the chap who repairs my photocopier, as skillful as he may be, is not necessarily an engineer. He's a technician.

When I started working, I was working at minimum wage. I didn't like it but it was the only way (I thought). My friends are now on their first job, earning as much as I do now as their entry level salary.

M/
 
But see... they aren't... When I applied for a loan, my bank told me that engineers were not classified as "skilled labourers".

That's just a generic classification by some bank or other - it doesn't reflect any wider body of opinion.


When I started working, I was working at minimum wage. I didn't like it but it was the only way (I thought). My friends are now on their first job, earning as much as I do now as their entry level salary.

Time to get your CV up to date and look for your next step up the career ladder.
 
I agree.

Where do you suggest? :)

Canada :D


I'm a trained chemist, I have a masters and a PhD, but I made the choice of going into teaching and education. I have been applying for jobs, but because I dont have 'current' experience recruiters dont want to give me a chance. I have explained that the way chemistry was done 10 years ago hasn't changed and lab work is pretty much the same, however thats what their requirements are. It's a losing battle. It doesnt matter if you can do a good job, but more about doing the job.
 
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Why are engineers (mechanical or otherwise) not seen a skilled labourers in the UK?

No reason to do so. We don't have a manufacturing base any longer. What use is it to be able to set up a Jones-Shipman surface grinder when everything is numerically controlled. I can set up a capstan lathe, design and cut the appropriate cams or make a one off piece from a drawing. I have designed and made split-level multi-stage fly press tools and these mechanical skills are all but no longer required.

We don't seem to have much to offer our young apprentices any more (do we have apprentices any more?) and thus, there is no interest in the mechanical engineering field. I never aspired to A.M.I. mech E but I was a competent toolmaker in my day. The only residual skill I have been left with is an engineer's sense of feel. When I look at a new unibody Mac, carved from a solid block of aluminium by water jets, I realise that I am now an anachronism. ;) CNC was in its infancy when I was working in a machine shop and we were never taught the appropriate skills.
 
Over the last 12 months, I've noticed that just about every friend I had in college has gotten a job...

Problem is, every single one of them has gotten a job outside of the UK... Apparently, they can get better paid jobs in countries where the cost of living is lower and where engineers are respected skilled people and not the bottom of the employment foodchain.

I would love to say I disagree with them... but sadly, I too have noticed that IT/engineering jobs in the UK are stagnating - and recently have been approached by companies in Shaghai, HK, Dubai and Italy regarding positions there...

Before anyone says that these are people with no skills, that have partied for 4 years at college without studying - these are people who spent for years (and considerable sums as some of them aren't British) to study until late every night including weekends, and have Masters degree from Imperial and Oxford... not exactly West Brum college...

Why are engineers (mechanical or otherwise) not seen a skilled labourers in the UK? Why isn't this a protected field like doctors and lawyers? You wouldn't trust someone to do heart surgery if he didn't have a piece of paper on his wall, why do people trust experience alone as a qualification to build a bridge? Experience plays an important role, but there is a foundation that is needed that only formal education can provide. One cannot go without the other and vice-versa.

GAAHHHH!

Ok, rant over. Had to get it off my chest.

M.

Sorry but as someone who has experience but no degree then I disagree with you. How can someone fresh out of school know more about particular tasks used in industry than someone who has years of experience performing those tasks?
Why do people trust experience alone as a qualification to build a bridge? Are you serious asking that?
Who would you trust to work on your car someone who has just passed his City & Guilds at college or Ollie with years of experience?

I am a consultant I used to work in a Motor Manufacturing Engineering Design facility as a consultant. One thing I noticed was all the design team were degree educated engineers, all the consultants were experienced people some with degrees but most just had experience. My job whilst there was to take the prototype electrical harnesses designed by the degree educated design team and try to fit it on the driveline it had been designed for. More often than not they did not fit or work without major reworks carried out by myself and 2 experienced electrical technicians.

IMHO Experience is worth a thousand pieces of paper qualifications UNTIL the paper qualified person has some experience in a real working environment. That's my tuppence worth anyway.

I do though confess to carrying out regular refresher training in my current field of High Voltage Engineering, in fact I am going on a course at EDF's facility in July.:thumb: I also get assessed by an independent assessor on a regular basis.

I also know that "gotten" is not a word "have got" is the phrase I think you were looking for but then I'm just some uneducated "technician" not a highly educated "engineer" like yourself.;);)
 
Sorry but as someone who has experience but no degree then I disagree with you. How can someone fresh out of school know more about particular tasks used in industry than someone who has years of experience performing those tasks?
Why do people trust experience alone as a qualification to build a bridge? Are you serious asking that?
Who would you trust to work on your car someone who has just passed his City & Guilds at college or Ollie with years of experience?

I am a consultant I used to work in a Motor Manufacturing Engineering Design facility as a consultant. One thing I noticed was all the design team were degree educated engineers, all the consultants were experienced people some with degrees but most just had experience. My job whilst there was to take the prototype electrical harnesses designed by the degree educated design team and try to fit it on the driveline it had been designed for. More often than not they did not fit or work without major reworks carried out by myself and 2 experienced electrical technicians.

IMHO Experience is worth a thousand pieces of paper qualifications UNTIL the paper qualified person has some experience in a real working environment. That's my tuppence worth anyway.

I do though confess to carrying out regular refresher training in my current field of High Voltage Engineering, in fact I am going on a course at EDF's facility in July.:thumb: I also get assessed by an independent assessor on a regular basis.

I also know that "gotten" is not a word "have got" is the phrase I think you were looking for but then I'm just some uneducated "technician" not a highly educated "engineer" like yourself.;);)


I do hazard that you may be mistaken, from the Oxford English Dictionary:
gotten(got¦ten)
North American
past participle of get

Usage
As past participles of get, got and gotten both date back to Middle English. The form gotten is not used in British English but is very common in North American English... In North American English, got and gotten are not identical in use. Gotten usually implies the process of obtaining something, as in he had gotten us tickets for the show, while got implies the state of possession or ownership, as in I haven't got any money

Regarding the working on my car - it really depends...

If you mean designing my car, I would want the engineer designing it to have both the degree and the experience. Experience is non-formal, unstructured training. You cannot be sure that you've "covered" all the possibilities. When you get formal education, your educator makes sure you have all the bases covered and that is a good foundation to build experience on.

If you mean repairing my car, I would want a technician or mecchanic to do it, who has the experience and training.

Put it this way, having a quick look at wikipedia; (Regulation and licensure in engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and there is a LONG list of countries along with their requirements to be an engineer and thus be a practicing engineer. Almost all include a degree plus experience.

Now, don't take this personally, I'm not saying you're not skilled or your experience counts for nothing. Quite the opposite in fact. What I'm saying is that there is a minority of people like you that have the skills but not the "paperwork". Sadly, there is a large majority of people without the skills, experience nor paperwork who profess to being "engineers" - these are the ones that annoy me as they put others lives in danger.

M.

EDIT: P.S. I don't profess to being an engineer. I don't have the necessary experience to be an engineer - for the UK, I assume the chartered engineer is the "engineer"... and I cannot claim to being there yet.
 
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