British jobs for British people

Discussion in 'OT (OFF Topic) Forums' started by markjay, Jul 2, 2011.

  1. markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    Regarding the debate following recent comments made by Ian Duncan Smith....

    There are three distinct groups of population in the UK.

    1. UK and EU Citizens. My understanding that these can not be discriminate against.

    2. Illegal immigrants, and those who entered the country with Tourists Visa prohibiting employment in the UK. These are not the subject of IDS comments either, as it would be illegal for any employer to employ them anyway, as it has always been.

    3. No-UK/EU nationals who are legitimate UK residents and have a UK Work Permit. Clearly IDS is not talking about these either, given that the government issued Visas and Work Permit to these people - surely IDS is not suggesting that we should avoid employ people whom the UK government provided with UK Work Permits? Besides, allowing someone to settle in the UK but prohibiting them from working here is basically asking them to embark on a life on benefits or crime - or both - or just join the black economy and pay no taxes - which makes no sense either. These people will need to support themselves somehow.

    So who exactly is IDS talking about? This is not an idealogical or political question, but a very practical one - I am an employer, and I am struggling to understand what is IDS expecting of me.
     
  2. renault12ts

    renault12ts MB Club Veteran

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    He's talking about the Eu guys.

    But, the problem is the lack of interest in the jobs these guys do amongst the local (indigenous) population.
     
  3. Scott_F

    Scott_F MB Enthusiast

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    You wouldn't be playing devil's advocate here by any chance would you ??
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  4. wemorgan

    wemorgan MB Enthusiast

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    Don't worry about it. Disregard anything he says and carry on as normal. :)
     
  5. Dryce

    Dryce MB Enthusiast

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    Both 1 and 3.

    Quite a few employers have been actively seeking too pull in people from the EU or take them in preference. As you infer not much that HMG can do.

    And there are employers who pull in people from outside the EU. Again as you point out legitimately.

    Of course if you go to various small businesses in some parts of the UK you will find loads of (2). Hint to IDS - if I can spot them why can't HMG.

    So basically if HMG won't regulate (3) and won't proactively deal with (2) then no chance.

    Actual solution? Don't teach kids in deprived areas English. Force them to speak French, German, Spanish, and Polish. Then they'll have chance to compete in the foreign labour markets or sucker the local employers into thinking they're EU.
     
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    markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    I do, sometimes, but not on this occasion... I have been listening to the debate on Radio 4 today, and I am none the wiser... the notion of of British Jobs for British People does sound sensible, but I truly have no idea how this should translate to real-life according to IDS.

    It's not the principal that I am debating here, my post is aimed very specifically at the comments made by IDS - what does this mean? I am an employer, and I do ask myself these questions.

    Sub-group 1, i.e. non-UK EU citizens, is an issue for the government to sort out with the EU, not for employers.

    Group 2 is an issue for the government again - enforcing current legislation.

    Group 3 is also an issue for the government, i.e. it is purely an immigration issue, the Home Office should make up their minds how many foreigners they want in the UK, but once here legally people should obviously be allowed - or in fact requested - to work and pay taxes.

    So why is he talking to us then? He should be making demands of his fellow ministers, not employers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2011
  7. SPX

    SPX MB Club Veteran

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    The delightful Gordon Brown tried this 'British jobs for British workers' trick and within weeks got stung by the refineries strikes.
     
  8. jonnyboy

    jonnyboy MB Enthusiast

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    The only way it work anyway is to stop the "I'm better off not working" culture. Asfar as I am concerned, being self-sufficient IS NOT OPTIONAL. Get rid of the sponger-drain on the welfare state and there will be demand for the crap jobs that British Nationals currently won't "lower" themselves to do.
     
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  9. Dryce

    Dryce MB Enthusiast

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    I think this stereotype isn't untrue. But it's not universal.

    But I spent this evening with a friend who works as skilled labour doing fabrication. His employer has been bringing in Eastern Europeans over the last few years who work for less. These guys undercut the local workforce because they shack up several to a room and its worth them sending money back home where it's worth more than my friend's income spent here.

    The UK workers have had to take a substantial pay cut to keep their jobs.

    So this is someone trying to bring up kids and pay local housing and living costs. But is being undermined by low cost labour imported from outside working for less because they are sustaining their own families at lower costs.
     
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  10. st4

    st4 Banned

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    I will learn polish and work in car detailing....

    Everyone is doing it.

    How hard can it be ;)
     
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    markjay

    markjay MB Club Veteran

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    Going back to IDS... so what he meant was that it is OK to employ foreigners once they are already here, but that employers should not go and seek them out in their countries of origin?
     
  12. LTD

    LTD MB Enthusiast

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    Yep, one of THOSE !!!
    You'll learn Polish before polish :D
     
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  13. st4

    st4 Banned

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    I'll have to "dwell" on that one methinks....
     
  14. LTD

    LTD MB Enthusiast

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    ... and that's the real killer to our economy.

    Exporting cash is fatal - we cannot compensate for that. Doesn't matter if it's Eastern Europe or Asia, the net export of cash hurts us all.

    Personally, I'd like to see some form of limit on cash exports FROM the UK economy. After all, there are Customs limits in force as to the amount of cash you can fly with. Why not extrapolate this ?
     
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  15. st4

    st4 Banned

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    How would you police this.

    You could of course get the "banks" to ensure that foreign nationals accounts are monitored and limited to how much they can send electronically outwith the UK. Rather easy to implement that one from a systems point of view (having worked for a bank) if that was made legistlation, but with money tranmission services like paypal, western union, there is no easy way of enforcing this without a greater cost to the economy than it would save.

    Which brings me back to my 1st point.

    Why are we not all detailing cars and taking in sheds for £8k and exporting them for £11k to Ghana once the paint is corrected.

    Grubby mits, bucket of water with some elses dirt in it. You know I think I will give it a shot in my most "polished" voice....
     
  16. Dryce

    Dryce MB Enthusiast

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    This is something that HMG is in denial about.

    What I don't get is how there is this universal HMG and economist mantra that migration is an unqualified good.

    It's clearly not. And it's not as if China is encouraging lots of inward migration and its economy is growing. Meanwhile UK and even US that have massive inward migration are running huge deficits.
     
  17. LTD

    LTD MB Enthusiast

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    I see a simple answer.

    Stop the export of cash.
    Insist all new migrants are prohibited from receiving any form of benefit for 12 months.
    Deport any migrant immediately if the break the current Laws in force. Even for dropping litter.

    Might be deemed cruel but we need to get a firm plateau of wellness before we can address ill.
     
  18. jonnyboy

    jonnyboy MB Enthusiast

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    I recall having a conversation with a family friend a while back. He has property in Europe, lets say Spain. He owns the property, paid for with cash earned in the uk (ironically working for a Spanish company but thats a pure coincidence). He was havng some work done and needed to have some readies over there to pay for materials etc (and i suspect for some black-economy labour although that has no relevance to what I am going to say). He told me that he could only send < £500 at a time otherwise the money laundering police would be all over him like a rash, caused him no end of bother as he had to do regularly irregular transfers.


    So it's not just non-British nationals who want to send £ out of the uk.


    My two pennorth is that migration is a load of ****ocks. Keep earned-in-the-UK £ in the Uk as much as is possible. Impossible to police it so rely on the morals and peer pressure to manage it? We just have to stop thinking of the rest of the world until such times as we have got our own country's finances in order first and other countries need to do the same. Remember earlier what I said about self-sufficiency not being optional? That applies to countries as well........

    Example:- A scouting party of aliens are circling the earth looking for a new home for their race. They are highly intelligent. As they circle the earth with all of their technology they also see an "overlay" describing each country's ethos and finances. Before they get half way around they see that the whole world just moves money and people around at a huge financial and emotional cost with the only real achievement being the people in charge walking around puffing their chests out about their magnanimous "achievements" around the globe whilst their own countrymen fall further and further in financial emotional and skills debt.

    Cue them leaving at warp speed 10 "they are bonkers on that planet, how could we ever co-exist with them? Let's see if we can land on the Sun instead, it's probably a more sensible option"


    Ok I am simplifying, not surprising at midnight on a saturday vino night but you get my drift....
     
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  19. jonnyboy

    jonnyboy MB Enthusiast

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    Spot-on. Wish I had dared say that!
     
  20. jeffwebb

    jeffwebb Active Member

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    For thoe who don't subscribe, I thought this was funny.Regards, Jeff.
     

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