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For the final time... YOU HAVE DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO CONTRIBUTE TO MY PENSION! I paid for it myself.

Are you seriously suggesting that by contributing 6% you've paid for your gold plated NHS pension yourself? Don't be ridiculous. The tax payer is paying for your pension. And that is fair enough, that after all, is the deal.

As I've pointed out before this is simply a numbers game. In order to keep the economy running it needs a reasonable number of working age people v retired people. If the equation goes out of wack the sums don't add up.

It may appeal to the base instincts of some of the electorate to huff and puff about immigration and foreigners, but actually it matters not in the slightest. We educate people because the country needs an educated work force. There is no guarantee that anyone, native or foreign, will stay in the country where they were educated. In a sense that is a bigger problem for underdeveloped countries. Lots of well educated people will want to live somewhere in Europe or America or Australia. When the West starts poaching trained nurses from the Phillipines it is rather harder for them to replace their skilled workforce than it is for the West.

We've grown rich precise because our economies are open. It encourages trade, it brings in new ideas, young people to work, new technology, export opportunities. If it was actually desirable to batten down the hatches and restrict the movement of people, money and ideas then communist Russia, Cuba etc etc would have grown wealthy. They did not. China had to open up its economy to get it to grow.

The birth rate in the west won't shoot up any time soon, and as long as it doesn't the politicians will keep importing people regardless of the lip service the bay to the base xenophobic instincs of the electorate.
 
312 Sprinter - nice to hear some sense as a pose to knee-jerk reactions.

So what classifies as British to get a job? Do I classify as British having naturalised a few years ago?

If not, would people who's parents were "imported"?

How many generations back must we go before we are "British"? One way or the other, most British have some foreign blood... be it Roman, Viking, French or Polish...

Locking the doors and closing your ears only ends one way... you starve, alone.

M.
 
Jepho,

Or start demonstrating for a referendum to exit the EU.

Most asylum seekers escape genuine horrors and the international community doesn’t help sometimes (see causes below) when they create phony safe havens (Google Srebrenica and Dutchbat) or just sat mass murders out (Rwanda). Don’t know about you but if I have a Serb mass murdering battalion approaching my village armed with heavy artillery I am going.

Now lets just do some history, as it seems you like that. Where do most asylum seekers have come from the last 60-70 years?

4. Iraq

Ahem cough cough

6. Africa (Generalised as there are too many)

That colonial empire left a lot unsolved conflicts based on arbitrary borders left by colonial masters. Britain and Franc


Snoop51 where is my touché??

Would love to have a referendum, like we were promised. Unlikely to happen though.

Srebenica & Dutchbat. Hmmmm all cases in those countries formally known as Yugoslavia were overseen by the UN not UK. All forces out there wore the powder blue beret, they were NOT allowed to intervene due UN rules of engagement. Sorry not a lot I or any other UK forces stationed in the former Yugoslavia could do about it anymore than you could.

Iraq. Why the Ahem cough cough? I was there during the first Gulf War, we were asked to by the Governments of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. The only reason Sadam Hussein was left in power at the end of that was because Gen Colin (Colon) Powell thought Sadam had had enough and would be a good boy from then onwards. The Foreign Legion and the SAS were within a couple of miles of him when they were told to back off. These migrants you are talking of from Iraq,the only ones oppressed were the Kurds, the ones who arrived here weren't.

Africa. Have you ever been???
I have and regardless of whether those countries were ex colonies or not they were left in reasonable condition. The fact of the matter is that Africa is tribal and each tribe hates the other. Consequently they will always fight each other, brutally. You can't blame the whole of Africa's problems on colonialism, it's been a long time since they were handed back and all are pretty much without exception worse for it.;)

As for your touché, sorry I'm still with Jepho.:p
 
snoop51

The example of Duchbat was that civilians were not protected as promised and once people found out what could happen to them they are not going to take chances.

Make sure you quote the whole paragraph for explanation the UK role in ex-Yugoslavia.

After the first Gulf war there were not exactly a problem with asylum seekers was there (this discussion would have been happening in 92-93 not now). There was a surge of Iraqi's after the latest war which is not just Kurds. Would you live in a country in turmoil that is made of loads of sects/nationalities that were living in an artificially created state which was disintegrated because well you know why the second gulf war happened. Also look up the history of Iraq and Kuwait and how they came into existence.

As it happened yes I have. The colonial empires are defunct but not the legacies. They take centuries to solve. Like ex Yugoslavia, like Kurdistan, like Bahrain, Yemen and few others. Empires created administrative zones which divided populations with a sound military strategy of divide and conquer (Roman invention). When said Empire pulls out (British, Frech, Ottoman) leaves a lot of destruction, bitterness and land problems. Yes Africa is tribal but it sounds like its their fault entirely and had nothing to do with the colonialists favouring one tribe to quell the other. What do you think happens when the massive firepower goes. That's right the oppressed tribe seek revenge.
 
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snoop51

The example of Duchbat was that civilians were not protected as promised and once people found out what could happen to them they are not going to take chances.

After the first Gulf war there were not exactly a problem with asylum seekers was there (this discussion would have been happening in 92-93 not now). There was a surge of Iraqi's after the latest war are not just Kurds. Would you live in a country in turmoil that is made of loads of sects/nationalities that were living in an artificially created state which was disintegrated because well you know why the second gulf war happened.

As it happened yes I have. The colonial empires are defunct but not the legacies. They take centuries to solve. Like ex Yugoslavia, like Kurdistan, like Bahrain, Yemen and few others. Empires created administrative zones which divided populations with a sound military strategy of divide and conquer (Roman invention). When said Empire pulls out (British, Frech, Ottoman) leaves a lot of destruction, bitterness and land problems.

Dutchbat. Once again I ask what has this to do with UK???

Iraq by the latest war I take it you mean the one instigated by the George Bush and his tooth cleaner (from the inside) Bliar. The fact is that they could have stayed in any EU country on the way which is what the EU constitution states "Those seeking asylum should ask for it in the first friendly country they come to". Now when has the UK been the nearest of the EU countries to Iraq, Iran, Africa, Afghanistan or former Yugoslavian countries? Last time I looked at a map we are pretty much last in line in terms of distance to any of them?

Regardless of whether Empires set up administrative districts or not the slave trade, butchery, mutilation, cannibalism, murder, rape and pillage have been a way of life in Africa for centuries. That I'm afraid is a fact that even you can't whitewash over with colonial whitewash drivel.:D
 
Would love to have a referendum, like we were promised. Unlikely to happen though.

We weren't promised a referendum on membership of the EU. We were promised one on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty but our on-going EU membership was never doubt.
 
We weren't promised a referendum on membership of the EU. We were promised one on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty but our on-going EU membership was never doubt.

I never said what referendum:D I'd just like the one we were promised. LOL
 
Africa. Have you ever been???
I have and regardless of whether those countries were ex colonies or not they were left in reasonable condition. The fact of the matter is that Africa is tribal and each tribe hates the other. Consesquently they will always fight each other, brutally. You can't blame the whole of Africa's problems on colonialism, it's been a long time since they were handed back and all are pretty much without exception worse for it.;)

Having spent 15-odd years in Africa - it's obvious you haven't understood much of the continent...

Yes, there is a tribal nature to the culture, but that isn't simplified when two or more foreign powers come in and start drawing lines on a map.

I think you'll find that the countries were not handed back in "reasonable condition", and that there has been quite a lot of influence from the UK since...

Take The Gambia for example, where green berrets were caught on tape by the beeb during the coup in the 80's.

Officially, they were never there....

M.
 
Take The Gambia for example, where green berrets were caught on tape by the beeb during the coup in the 80's.

Officially, they were never there....

M.

What green berets?? U.S. or are you talking about the Royal Marines who aren't Green Berets.

Neither are thousands of illegal immigrants in UK. Your point??
 
Neither are thousands of illegal immigrants in UK. Your point??


Those are the immigrants you want to find snoop51 rather touche-ing people that are here legally financially contributing to your economy.

Just because you didn't agree with T. Blair doesn't give the Iraqi's that had homes destroyed or were abused or simply left with a pile of rubble with no functioning government any better deal does it? Bush or no Bush the UK had a slice of shameful pie and you are enjoying and reaping the fruits as you type.

Now you claim they should claim asylum to the nearest safe haven is nice and dandy but really what you saying is we create the crap let the countries next to the conflict mop up the refugees. How very thoughtful of you...

In case you haven't noticed Italy does take a lot more a month that you take in a year, France and Spain quite a bit more and so does Germany. Check UNHCR website it seems that UK doesn't have that bad either
 
We weren't promised a referendum on membership of the EU. We were promised one on ratification of the Lisbon Treaty but our on-going EU membership was never doubt.

Our on going membership of the EU is very much in doubt, as is every other member nations, within 10 years first the Euro and then the EU will be nothing more than questions in history exams.
 
Those are the immigrants you want to find snoop51 rather touche-ing people that are here legally financially contributing to your economy.

Just because you didn't agree with T. Blair doesn't give the Iraqi's that had homes destroyed or were abused or simply left with a pile of rubble with no functioning government any better deal does it? Bush or no Bush the UK had a slice of shameful pie and you are enjoying and reaping the fruits as you type.

Now you claim they should claim asylum to the nearest safe haven is nice and dandy but really what you saying is we create the crap let the countries next to the conflict mop up the refugees. How very thoughtful of you...

In case you haven't noticed Italy does take a lot more a month that you take in a year, France and Spain quite a bit more and so does Germany. Check UNHCR website it seems that UK doesn't have that bad either

What pie? What fruit exactly am I enjoying?? Seeing friends of mine come back from a place they should never have been sent to by liars and thieves, minus limbs?? Some f**king pie!!

I don't claim asylum seeker should be going to the nearest safe place the EU does! Not my rules, some dopey unelected politician made that one up.

Provide a link to these magical figures on the UNHCR website as I can't seem to be able to find them.

I did find these figures from the European Commission though.

"The largest numbers of immigrants to the EU in
2006 were recorded in Spain, Germany and United
Kingdom (Table 1). These three countries together
received more than 2 million immigrants (including
returning nationals). The total number of
immigrants recorded in the national registers
reached over 840 000 in Spain and over 660 000 in
Germany1. In the United Kingdom, the number of
immigrants identified at the border as intending to
stay at least one year was nearly 530 000,
according to national statistics.
However, among these countries only Spain also
had high immigration relative to its population size.
The highest rate of immigration was recorded in
Luxembourg, followed by Ireland, Cyprus and
Spain. These four countries had significantly higher
rates compared with other Member States, while
for Germany and the United Kingdom, immigration
per 1000 inhabitants was close to the EU-27
average"

I don't think we take less than our fair share especially when looking at this.

England is most crowded country in Europe - Telegraph

Now if Italy has overtaken us then that will be because of the UN mandate to bomb Gadaffi in Libya. Oh that'll be the UN again then, is that UK's fault again then, we are a part of the UN not the whole thing.;)
 
Our on going membership of the EU is very much in doubt, as is every other member nations, within 10 years first the Euro and then the EU will be nothing more than questions in history exams.

Nonsense - we'll still be members of the EU regardless of what happens to the Euro currency. There was an EU long before the Euro and regardless of the problems of a minority of members there still will be.
 
Actually it was the big yin frae Athens way who said:

"He who does not desire power is fit to hold it."

Thank you Mr Plato.

I must say that there is a distinct whiff of some rather nasty knuckle dragging politics in some parts of this thread. Quite unpleasant.

I for one would be pleased to see it closed.

I can't remember that far back. I'm old just not that old.;):thumb::D
 
Nonsense - we'll still be members of the EU regardless of what happens to the Euro currency. There was an EU long before the Euro and regardless of the problems of a minority of members there still will be.

Denmark has just decided to stop free movement through its of EU members which may well snowball
10 years ago The UK was odds on to join the Euro, has it?
Without economic union the political entity doesn't work, I don't disgree something European will exist but it won't be the EU with the scope and direction we all despise now-perhaps a free trade zone without tariffs would make sense, the thing we signed up for.
 
Denmark has just decided to stop free movement through its of EU members which may well snowball
10 years ago The UK was odds on to join the Euro, has it?
Without economic union the political entity doesn't work, I don't disgree something European will exist but it won't be the EU with the scope and direction we all despise now-perhaps a free trade zone without tariffs would make sense, the thing we signed up for.

Denmark doesn't even use the Euro.

There was economic agreement long before the Euro and the EU as an entity remains strong. Even if the so-called PIGS economies were to withdraw from the Euro it wouldn't signal the end of the currency. And even if the Euro were ultimately to fail (which I doubt due to the relative strength of the French, German and other economies) the EU would survive and in no way be confined to history exams as you suggested.
 
Lets agree to differ, I think the EU and its weak currency is at its lowest ebb and in crisis, you obviously don't.
 
Lets agree to differ, I think the EU and its weak currency is at its lowest ebb and in crisis, you obviously don't.

There is clearly a crisis but not one that will lead to the demise of the EU.
 
Without economic union the political entity doesn't work, I don't disgree something European will exist but it won't be the EU with the scope and direction we all despise now-perhaps a free trade zone without tariffs would make sense, the thing we signed up for.

The Euro is flawed because the member countries are still independent.

In terms of European integration the EU nations still operate separate treasuries, separate foreign affairs, separate military, separate military alliances, nuclear arms/deterrent policies.

UK has strong links with Commonwealth countries. We have closer military relationships with non-EU countries than most EU countries.

The biggest benefit of the EU IMO has been the free trade and movement of citizens/labour.

The biggest barrier is probably language.

The biggest flaw is the legal baggage.

The Euro isn't as important or significant by comparison.
 

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