Budget - vehicle taxation changes, Q&A

[jadefox]

bump - because I'm enjoying reading every one else's views on this!

 

[st13phil]

Heard on the radio this morning that the backlash has started in the newspapers now that people are starting to realise that 9 out of 10 car owners will be paying more in VED in the name of "saving the planet" as a result of the Budget

 

[robert.saunders]

bump - because I'm enjoying reading every one else's views on this!

It *does* make a difference to me. I went from the C220 to the Mondeo last year as I bought my first house and to be frank that was and is more important. I was at the time put out by the costs of the dealer to service the MB and so I went to Ford. I read the reviews and the Mondeo always reviewed well (especially the MkIII that I have) and I plumped for the biggest diesel engine. Running costs for fuel and tax are on par with the C220 but servicing and parts considerably less.

I'll be looking to change the Ford soon as I have reaped the benefit in my first expensive year of owning the house, and am looking at MB or BMW next. I have looked at emissions for the C320CDi and also the 330d. I don’t want to consider the 320d; I could opt for the C270 which is a great engine but I always like to go top (ahem) hence the 155 Mondeo I have at the moment

Horses for courses I suppose. These engines are ~200 g/km, it would be nice to be dead on 200 rather than 201 £300 tax is, for me, erring on the high side, regardless whether I consider it affordable (which I do, but I feel I have other things to spend my money on)

 

[imadoofus]

Heard on the radio this morning that the backlash has started in the newspapers now that people are starting to realise that 9 out of 10 car owners will be paying more in VED in the name of "saving the planet" as a result of the Budget

I'd be interested to see the form of that "backlash". The fact is that the government, according to their own made-up numbers, need the tax generated by the changes in the budget. If we, by some yet-to-be-formulated 'backlash' get them to reverse their decisions rolleyes: ) regarding VED, they'll just slap the tax elsewhere. As I said in another thread, I don't believe VED is the right way to tax motorists, but at least it does target them specifically, rather than the entire tax-paying electorate.

 

[steveatpipex]

I'd be interested to see the form of that "backlash". The fact is that the government, according to their own made-up numbers, need the tax generated by the changes in the budget. If we, by some yet-to-be-formulated 'backlash' get them to reverse their decisions rolleyes: ) regarding VED, they'll just slap the tax elsewhere. As I said in another thread, I don't believe VED is the right way to tax motorists, but at least it does target them specifically, rather than the entire tax-paying electorate.

Or alternatively they could actually tackle the cause of the need to continuously raise tax by changing they way they manage the Public Sector. having worked in that sector for 30 years I know at first hand just how much the Command and Control approach by government is costing, and its got nothing to do with how many resources, or how much money is thrown in, but the way it is all managed. Their current approach is driven by short termism and headline figures and for an easy example to let you see what I mean, problem - Substance misuse (eg drugs) - government solution - get drugs users into treatment - measure - numbers of drugs users in treatmment. Sounds simple doesn't it. But take into account the cost of treatment for each user, say £1500. Now look at the target again - numbers of people in treatment - dig further and you find (as did I) that around 50% of these people have been through the same treatment time after time so now look at how much money is being wasted by the wrong approach (no alignment between purpose, method and measure) - something that is not picked up by anybody as the measures used are about numbers in treatment.

In researching this as part of my current work some estimates have put this type wastage as high as 80% in local authorites, and 50% in the police - and its not casued by poor performing workers, or fat cat paid bosses, but by the system they have to work under, something that is entirely under the control of the government.

Now that is a very quick and simple sketch of whats going on all over the public sector - all that is happening is that the targets drive peoples behaviour, which is focused on meeting the target rather than delivering the changes necessary to resolve a problem or deliver an excellent service, if you follow my drift.

Result - massive waste of money, little change in real performance (although many targets are "reached") and the need to continuously feed the beast that the governement has created of its own making.

Quite simply there are other ways but because this problem is not even noticed by all but a small exception of switched on reporters (Simon Caulkin in The Observer springs to mind) it is poorly understood. Ho hum.................

 

[C240Sport97]

targets are of course the brainchild of the current PM, and one of his favourite tools for measurement ...

Or alternatively they could actually tackle the cause of the need to continuously raise tax by changing they way they manage the Public Sector. having worked in that sector for 30 years I know at first hand just how much the Command and Control approach by government is costing, and its got nothing to do with how many resources, or how much money is thrown in, but the way it is all managed. Their current approach is driven by short termism and headline figures and for an easy example to let you see what I mean, problem - Substance misuse (eg drugs) - government solution - get drugs users into treatment - measure - numbers of drugs users in treatmment. Sounds simple doesn't it. But take into account the cost of treatment for each user, say £1500. Now look at the target again - numbers of people in treatment - dig further and you find (as did I) that around 50% of these people have been through the same treatment time after time so now look at how much money is being wasted by the wrong approach (no alignment between purpose, method and measure) - something that is not picked up by anybody as the measures used are about numbers in treatment.

In researching this as part of my current work some estimates have put this type wastage as high as 80% in local authorites, and 50% in the police - and its not casued by poor performing workers, or fat cat paid bosses, but by the system they have to work under, something that is entirely under the control of the government.

Now that is a very quick and simple sketch of whats going on all over the public sector - all that is happening is that the targets drive peoples behaviour, which is focused on meeting the target rather than delivering the changes necessary to resolve a problem or deliver an excellent service, if you follow my drift.

Result - massive waste of money, little change in real performance (although many targets are "reached") and the need to continuously feed the beast that the governement has created of its own making.

Quite simply there are other ways but because this problem is not even noticed by all but a small exception of switched on reporters (Simon Caulkin in The Observer springs to mind) it is poorly understood. Ho hum.................

 

[C240Sport97]

nothing like being affected by changes to make people say/do something

Heard on the radio this morning that the backlash has started in the newspapers now that people are starting to realise that 9 out of 10 car owners will be paying more in VED in the name of "saving the planet" as a result of the Budget

 

[steveatpipex]

targets are of course the brainchild of the current PM, and one of his favourite tools for measurement ...

Exactly - but it is at the end of the day just a way of managing which sadly has become deeply embedded in the public sector to the point where many just accept them as a way of life - "its just the way it is".

Its not that long ago I was at a conference to do with the issues caused by "Alcohol" and it was broadly agreed that it is a massive issue (some said the biggest issue) causing pain, economic prosperity, illness, crime, but nothing could be done as they did "not have any targets therfore was not a priority"

 

[jadefox]

It *does* make a difference to me. I went from the C220 to the Mondeo last year as I bought my first house and to be frank that was and is more important. I was at the time put out by the costs of the dealer to service the MB and so I went to Ford. I read the reviews and the Mondeo always reviewed well (especially the MkIII that I have) and I plumped for the biggest diesel engine. Running costs for fuel and tax are on par with the C220 but servicing and parts considerably less.

I'll be looking to change the Ford soon as I have reaped the benefit in my first expensive year of owning the house, and am looking at MB or BMW next. I have looked at emissions for the C320CDi and also the 330d. I don’t want to consider the 320d; I could opt for the C270 which is a great engine but I always like to go top (ahem) hence the 155 Mondeo I have at the moment

Horses for courses I suppose. These engines are ~200 g/km, it would be nice to be dead on 200 rather than 201 £300 tax is, for me, erring on the high side, regardless whether I consider it affordable (which I do, but I feel I have other things to spend my money on)

<nodding at Robert> I came from a Mondeo to my car now actually, I agree - we had the Mondeo because of its superior reliability - not it's looks or performance particularly. It was a 2ltr engine, so like you, my tax bill on it a year would have still gone up.

I was really stoked when I finally just about afforded the car I have now, I think suits me and my lifestyle - I actually want to drive it, it pleases me that it's on the drive and I love everything about it. So imagine then, the dismay at this price hike in my car tax...

The problem as I see it with this government is that they keep us all sedated - they tax to a point which most of us will pay - they don't give us the choices to say no. They give us just about enough to keep us happy in everything....wages, perks, - of which there are not many, standard of living etc etc, until we are so terrified of losing it all we keep our mouths shut.

It's just legalised mind control.

But try to be a subversive and see where that gets you!!

 

[st13phil]

In researching this as part of my current work some estimates have put this type wastage as high as 80% in local authorites, and 50% in the police - and its not casued by poor performing workers, or fat cat paid bosses, but by the system they have to work under, something that is entirely under the control of the government.

Now that is a very quick and simple sketch of whats going on all over the public sector - all that is happening is that the targets drive peoples behaviour, which is focused on meeting the target rather than delivering the changes necessary to resolve a problem or deliver an excellent service, if you follow my drift.

"What gets measured gets managed" is a well accepted mantra in business and the issue here is not that there are targets and mearurements per se, but that that the ones being used are the wrong targets and measurements which, as steveatpipex correctly identified, results from "no alignment between purpose, method and measure".

In the last few decades, those who govern us have become increasingly "career politicians" who have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about how to run a business (successfully or otherwise) which is one of the reasons they and equally business-illiterate civil servants are so easily convinced to deploy inappropriate metrics and think that they have somehow "fixed" the problem. The net result is huge sums of money wasted on employing people to be busy fools.

"Measure what's important, don't make important what you can measure" is another mantra that our politicians (and civil servants, for that matter) would do well to learn. No successful business can possibly survive unless it understands what is important to its success, sets targets for itself that are relevant, measures whether it is achieving those targets and taking corrective action if it is not. There is no reason that running public services should be any different.

 

[verytalldave]

Perhaps if MP's displayed a little less "sod you lot, I'm alright" attitude, then just perhaps I might not mind quite so much continually digging my hand ever deeper into my pocket.
What with todays revelations that WE end up paying for MP's expense account kitchens, TV's etc, etc, then I have just about had my fill of our rabble of "snouts in the trough" MP's. ALL of them.

Question. Who do we have in politics that the electorate can trust?
Answer. Nobody.

I vote Clarkson.
He couldnt do worse if he tried.

 

[DieselE]

The problem as I see it with this government is that they keep us all sedated - they tax to a point which most of us will pay - they don't give us the choices to say no. They give us just about enough to keep us happy in everything....wages, perks, - of which there are not many, standard of living etc etc, until we are so terrified of losing it all we keep our mouths shut.

I don't want to bring politics into it but it would be really nice if in a maximum of two years time everyone remembers what has been happening and puts their X in a different box.

 

[gbjeppm]

I don't want to bring politics into it but it would be really nice if in a maximum of two years time everyone remembers what has been happening and puts their X in a different box.

The only problem is that it really needs to be the same different box, if we really want to get this lot out.

 

[glojo]

I don't want to bring politics into it but it would be really nice if in a maximum of two years time everyone remembers what has been happening and puts their X in a different box.

I continually vote for the Monster raving Loony Party as they at least are in touch with the real world although I fear it was they who first suggested congestion charges

Is there a Political Party that would look after the interests of the nation before the interests of themselves?

John

 

[BIG Sean]

This all reminds me of my recent job evaluation process

New grades, realignment, lots of losers etc etc

Me too

 

[janner]

Is there a Political Party that would look after the interests of the nation before the interests of themselves?

John

Go for it John, I'd vote for you

 

[hawk20]

Heard on the radio this morning that the backlash has started in the newspapers now that people are starting to realise that 9 out of 10 car owners will be paying more in VED in the name of "saving the planet" as a result of the Budget

Yes. And yet the Chancellor who is supposed to know what he is talking about said in the actual budget speech "The majority of motorists will be paying less". Either he was lying or he hadn't understood the details of his own scheme.

 

[gbjeppm]

Yes. And yet the Chancellor who is supposed to know what he is talking about said in the actual budget speech "The majority of motorists will be paying less". Either he was lying or he hadn't understood the details of his own scheme.

Absolutely right, see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...1YourView&xml=/news/2008/03/14/nbudget114.xml

Apparently the scheme was not finalised according to the AA at the end of last week, and has been rushed through and affects more vehicles than intended.

 

[Dryce]

Yes. And yet the Chancellor who is supposed to know what he is talking about said in the actual budget speech "The majority of motorists will be paying less". Either he was lying or he hadn't understood the details of his own scheme.

Well at least he didn't blame it on the last Conservative government.

I think what appalls me more than anything is how government respect for the ordinary citizen has diminished year on year since 1997 to the point where it is now zero.

 

[Satch]

Well, they finally got there: Retrospective Taxation

Only thing required now to complete the historic pattern of failing socialist governments who have taxed and spent their way into disaster is to propose a Wealth Tax.