Buying advice - the battle of the flawed engines 2000s M5 vs E63

[SarahAnn200]

Only just found this thread. Very interesting search and great to see photos of the decision. Looks great

 

[MrRight]

Only just found this thread. Very interesting search and great to see photos of the decision. Looks great

Thank you, yes lots of people chimed in with invaluable info made what would have taken weeks to research get sorted in a few days

 

[SarahAnn200]

The burgundy maserati that someone put on is one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. I looked at nearly new Ghilbis last time but was told they were very expensive to run even with my low mileage. It put me off

 

[MrRight]

It has taken far longer than I expected but here is the 1k miles mini review of the 6.2 w211 E63.

WHY NO LOVE FOR THE E63?
Firstly it has to be said how disappointed I am at the lack of enthusiasm for this variant of the w211 AMG especially compared to the legendary E55. There are practically only barely a handful of videos on YouTube. Now ofcourse I did court the idea of the E55, however there was only one such specimen with low mileage available on autotrader and second, I do like an NA engine (or do i ? We will find out further below...). Yes this engine is hopeless for tuning purposes but I'm not planning on getting more power out of the car.

REGRET AT LOSING THE E46 M3?
First thing to say is while I've certainly claimed to have missed my e46 m3, it really is only the hooligan sound and attitude (and the convertible aspect) ofcourse that car is way more sporty and the long steering rack makes it a pleasure to put through the corners with pinpoint accuracy and go kart -like composure , and also its diminutive size makes for a great little car to zoom around on B roads that the E class simply isn't suited to. The total takeover by the aural experience forces a connection to the car and road that is special indeed. However that's where the advantages end. Yes the high revving m3 engine is a masterpiece, however being only 3.2 litres, it simply cant compare to the 6.2 lump . 340hp and 360ish NM of torque from a "little " engine is an accomplishment, however the 6.2 is entirely on a different level. Then there is the comfort , luxury and practicality. Case closed.

Not that I care about stats but the xfr was supercharged and had similar headline torque to the NA engine. Yes it comes low down in the rev range but here is why I love the 6.2., if you want torque then put your foot down and you'll get it.

THROTTLE RESPONSE
It is pin point and razor sharp in terms of response, yes the pedal needs some pushing but that's part of the allure. On my 205 c63 , I've never got anywhere by pushing down hard on the throttle at low speed , if I dont want to slide out of a corner I actually have to move off in 2nd gear and even then I've got to go easy on the pedal. Not on the e63, I can simply not be concerned about modulating the throttle. Yes the c63 is far more fun to slide around at low speeds, but that is immature and sadly I cant help driving it like a lunatic, it has perfect balance and slides beautifully. It is more of a toy than a car if I'm honest and is the most entertaining car at low speeds that I've driven , with the sound track and and silly wheel spin , it feels like the engineers created the car as a practical joke. Yet some jokers buy these cars? go figure!

With the M3 I could kick down the throttle pedal pretty much anywhere and anytime , no issues , cant do that with the e63 , it needs a bit of respect but nowhere near as much as the c63 which is like an angry , violent boss that you dont want to piss off or else you'll suffer some scary consequences. I guess that is similar to the e55 in some respects perhaps except the c is far wilder because it has no transmission lag whatsoever and will trip you up by down shifting silently and stick you in 1st gear so that you can frighten yourself when you forget it does that.

So in summary , the e63 delivers butter smooth 500hp of goodness that is proportional to how much you push down on the pedal. Win win.

One issue I have with the car is the obsession that the transmission has with constantly shifting gears .in sport mode if I put my foot down even a bit, it goes down a gear, this creates some lag and then while I'm accelerating to produce a satisfying bellow from the exhaust , it up shifts part way through. Yet somehow I prefer to drive in auto shifting mode as I just cant gel with it in manual mode. That's one area the e46 has it beat, as terrible as the smg is, it is far more predictable than the e63 in manual mode.

COMFORT
So the one area the E63 excels is in the comfort department , I forget it is an AMG and it hardly ever tries to kill me so it feels like it is a luxury car first and foremost and it is hard to ever think of it as a sports car. Even when pushed , it is far too relaxed and chilled to give away the fact that the speed limit has been exceeded by a huge margin. It would honestly make the perfect taxi in that regard.

EXHAUST
I definitely think this car suffers from too much sound insulation and not enough exhaust note in the cabin. Tempted to mod the exhaust but worried about the neighbours. I leave the house at 6.30am each morning. I have noticed though that once the engine warms up, it does improve the sound quality slightly .

Saw an edition 1 c63s 205 today and the sound was to die for from outside the car, if only I could stick that exhaust on the E63...

RELIABILITY
Unfortunately this isnt a strong suit of this model. The coolant sensor is out even despite trying to get it replaced. To top that off , the 3rd brake light , number plate lights and boot no longer have power , no doubt a cable somewhere has snapped. I need to check for snapped wires.

Had the front bushes changed after purchasing it but overall as long as the engine , transmission and main bits are in good condition that is all that matters. I did have a funny situation which may have been software related and the car got stuck in second gear until I turned it off and on again.

OVERALL
With the benefit of hindsight was it a good purchase ? TBC

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

The M55/159 engine and it’s throttle response really is a joy.

I agree on the long pedal too, combined with the linear pick up, it means that you know exactly how the engine will respond to each carefully measured move of your right foot.

By comparison the M177/178 engines by are snappy and unpredictable. Great fun but much more difficult to moderate inputs.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

I don’t know if there’s another car that shows such dichotomy between two models as the E55K and the E63; they’re literally chalk and cheese. Only reason I’d take an E55K over an XFR would be nostalgia, they’ll always be my first love but the XFR is head and shoulders above both imo.

I really love the facelift W211 though - probably my favourite saloon car -, always seems to me as that was the point Mercedes went away from their long history of executive comfort and went young and sporty; they went chasing a certain demographic by aping Audi and they got the numbers.

I doubt you’ll ever truly get on with the gearbox - it does suit a N/A more than FI funnily enough though - the first two gears have got a mind of their own, 3,4,5 not bad but then 6 & 7 return to the first two gears of never really knowing what they want to do; very strange gearbox. But if you made sense of the SMG in the M3 then this shouldn’t be too onerous!

I’m sure you’ll settle into its quirks though, irrespective of my rubbing of the M156, it does come with a great soundtrack and it is a size that’ll probably never happen again so, for those things alone, enjoy it while you can.

 

[rockits]

I'd have to agree that the XJL SuperSport powerplant (same as XFR I believe) is a step up. It is a 510bhp supercharged cracker of.an engine with the ZF box being a great partner. The car is much more modern and recommend for sure but I dislike the oversight steering with little to no feel.

I do love the 55K powerplant equally in the E55K though. I love the abundant mechanical traction it gives possibly more so in the estate. The steering is better in comparisons but a smidge too heavy IMHO in both I had. The gearbox is great as a cruiser but let's it down as a sports car for more spirited drives. The ride is slightly better and really well judged.

I would love another E55K but I felt the XJL SuperSport gave more more of what I needed at this time.

I have been trying to get into an MB again as am currently empty on that front. Just not sure what fills any current void.

I have never driven an E63 of any description and I guess I need to to see if it grabs me.

I was considering an SLK55 possibly as an option but been too busy at work to look at anything

 

[Skd884]

It has taken far longer than I expected but here is the 1k miles mini review of the 6.2 w211 E63.

WHY NO LOVE FOR THE E63?
Firstly it has to be said how disappointed I am at the lack of enthusiasm for this variant of the w211 AMG especially compared to the legendary E55. There are practically only barely a handful of videos on YouTube. Now ofcourse I did court the idea of the E55, however there was only one such specimen with low mileage available on autotrader and second, I do like an NA engine (or do i ? We will find out further below...). Yes this engine is hopeless for tuning purposes but I'm not planning on getting more power out of the car.

REGRET AT LOSING THE E46 M3?
First thing to say is while I've certainly claimed to have missed my e46 m3, it really is only the hooligan sound and attitude (and the convertible aspect) ofcourse that car is way more sporty and the long steering rack makes it a pleasure to put through the corners with pinpoint accuracy and go kart -like composure , and also its diminutive size makes for a great little car to zoom around on B roads that the E class simply isn't suited to. The total takeover by the aural experience forces a connection to the car and road that is special indeed. However that's where the advantages end. Yes the high revving m3 engine is a masterpiece, however being only 3.2 litres, it simply cant compare to the 6.2 lump . 340hp and 360ish NM of torque from a "little " engine is an accomplishment, however the 6.2 is entirely on a different level. Then there is the comfort , luxury and practicality. Case closed.

Not that I care about stats but the xfr was supercharged and had similar headline torque to the NA engine. Yes it comes low down in the rev range but here is why I love the 6.2., if you want torque then put your foot down and you'll get it.

THROTTLE RESPONSE
It is pin point and razor sharp in terms of response, yes the pedal needs some pushing but that's part of the allure. On my 205 c63 , I've never got anywhere by pushing down hard on the throttle at low speed , if I dont want to slide out of a corner I actually have to move off in 2nd gear and even then I've got to go easy on the pedal. Not on the e63, I can simply not be concerned about modulating the throttle. Yes the c63 is far more fun to slide around at low speeds, but that is immature and sadly I cant help driving it like a lunatic, it has perfect balance and slides beautifully. It is more of a toy than a car if I'm honest and is the most entertaining car at low speeds that I've driven , with the sound track and and silly wheel spin , it feels like the engineers created the car as a practical joke. Yet some jokers buy these cars? go figure!

With the M3 I could kick down the throttle pedal pretty much anywhere and anytime , no issues , cant do that with the e63 , it needs a bit of respect but nowhere near as much as the c63 which is like an angry , violent boss that you dont want to piss off or else you'll suffer some scary consequences. I guess that is similar to the e55 in some respects perhaps except the c is far wilder because it has no transmission lag whatsoever and will trip you up by down shifting silently and stick you in 1st gear so that you can frighten yourself when you forget it does that.

So in summary , the e63 delivers butter smooth 500hp of goodness that is proportional to how much you push down on the pedal. Win win.

One issue I have with the car is the obsession that the transmission has with constantly shifting gears .in sport mode if I put my foot down even a bit, it goes down a gear, this creates some lag and then while I'm accelerating to produce a satisfying bellow from the exhaust , it up shifts part way through. Yet somehow I prefer to drive in auto shifting mode as I just cant gel with it in manual mode. That's one area the e46 has it beat, as terrible as the smg is, it is far more predictable than the e63 in manual mode.

COMFORT
So the one area the E63 excels is in the comfort department , I forget it is an AMG and it hardly ever tries to kill me so it feels like it is a luxury car first and foremost and it is hard to ever think of it as a sports car. Even when pushed , it is far too relaxed and chilled to give away the fact that the speed limit has been exceeded by a huge margin. It would honestly make the perfect taxi in that regard.

EXHAUST
I definitely think this car suffers from too much sound insulation and not enough exhaust note in the cabin. Tempted to mod the exhaust but worried about the neighbours. I leave the house at 6.30am each morning. I have noticed though that once the engine warms up, it does improve the sound quality slightly .

Saw an edition 1 c63s 205 today and the sound was to die for from outside the car, if only I could stick that exhaust on the E63...

RELIABILITY
Unfortunately this isnt a strong suit of this model. The coolant sensor is out even despite trying to get it replaced. To top that off , the 3rd brake light , number plate lights and boot no longer have power , no doubt a cable somewhere has snapped. I need to check for snapped wires.

Had the front bushes changed after purchasing it but overall as long as the engine , transmission and main bits are in good condition that is all that matters. I did have a funny situation which may have been software related and the car got stuck in second gear until I turned it off and on again.

OVERALL
With the benefit of hindsight was it a good purchase ? TBC

M156 The perfect road car ?

C63 Black Series: The perfect road car? | PistonHeads

 

[350cls]

It's a strange one the SC Vs N/A d babate.

The 55k I felt I wanted to thrash it all the time to get that push in the back and open up the taps and hear that V8 monster inside. And what a feeling when doing so.

The 63 m156 just doesn't make me feel like this all of the time. It's a better all round cruiser for me I don't need to thrash it every time. But when you feel like it, it comes to life at the click of your fingers.

I really like both engines carracters. But at this particular time in my life im more suited to the N/A performance.

And the handling of the two cars has a major difference also.

I never really drove the 55k in sport ll suspension setting. Only ever comfort or sport l.

The E63 6.3 I drive in C 95% of the time occasionally sport l. Sport ll would shake the minstrels out if you. C setting is perfect regarding suspension.

I know the OP write up is related to the W211 6.3 . I would have liked to tried the w211 6.3. I was close to pulling the trigger on a S211but in the end got the w212.

It seems both the 55 and 6.3 in the 211 chassis have slight flaws but overall what fantastic cars to ever be associated with and to be able to own and drive on a daily basis.

I think there could be had slight changes on all the above cars if we were being really picky. But for what they are they beat the competition in there era all day long.

 

[MrRight]

all very good points ,
the xfr engine vs the 6.2 l UK lump, I'm more of a fan if the 6.2. but the xfr had some great kit inside and felt super modern and better in many respects. the e is like a throwback to the mercs my family owned and the first car I ever drove was a w114 230.6.

Rockits, I hear you regarding the steering on the xfr, I thought so too , the merc felt better steering wise and comfort wise too.

the gearbox, yes the jag has the edge here for sure. for cruising, the benz gearbox is actually great but not sure it would be of any use on the track for example.

all I can say is the merc is deceptively fast , you just cant feel it . I'd wager it would own the jag at the traffic light grand prix , not so sure about very windy roads though, not without an LSD.

 

[John]

XFR is slightly heavier than the E55K (25KG or so apparently).

Both cars standard, Jag produces 510BHP but then so do a lot of 55s unless you read MB's marketing.

So power-to-weight is pretty similar.

I'd be interested to see the weight difference vs. the 8 speed ZF vs. the 5 speed MB box and consequently a few comparisons in the real world.

I think the E55K would very slightly edge the XF but that's a gut feeling and it could easily be the other way around.

EDIT: A quick watch of YT videos on the topic, where the driver of the E55K can actually drive, it seems the E55K edges the XFR to start with and then the XFR reigns it in.

 

[Deleted member 37751]

XFR is slightly heavier than the E55K (25KG or so apparently).

Both cars standard, Jag produces 510BHP but then so do a lot of 55s unless you read MB's marketing.

So power-to-weight is pretty similar.

I'd be interested to see the weight difference vs. the 8 speed ZF vs. the 5 speed MB box and consequently a few comparisons in the real world.

I think the E55K would very slightly edge the XF but that's a gut feeling and it could easily be the other way around.

EDIT: A quick watch of YT videos on the topic, where the driver of the E55K can actually drive, it seems the E55K edges the XFR to start with and then the XFR reigns it in.

Having owned both and *cough* tested my old E55K that was circa 525bhp against my XFR in a straight line, the XFR (maybe due to quicker gearbox plus E-Diff) got the jump and just kept pulling away.

When I tested it against a 550bhp CLS63, there was very little in it (CLS always half a length ahead) up to 70mph then backed off.

 

[MrRight]

XFR is slightly heavier than the E55K (25KG or so apparently).

Both cars standard, Jag produces 510BHP but then so do a lot of 55s unless you read MB's marketing.

So power-to-weight is pretty similar.

I'd be interested to see the weight difference vs. the 8 speed ZF vs. the 5 speed MB box and consequently a few comparisons in the real world.

I think the E55K would very slightly edge the XF but that's a gut feeling and it could easily be the other way around.

EDIT: A quick watch of YT videos on the topic, where the driver of the E55K can actually drive, it seems the E55K edges the XFR to start with and then the XFR reigns it in.

good question, and as SPX says , the gearbox on the e55 probably comes into play though the age of the e55 could have also played a role. Also a car with lots of torque can be hard to properly launch. I would be surprised if either the e55 or the xfr could get the jump on the e63. the transmission has imperceptible lag when it is pushed and coupled with that linear throttle response, it is very very easy to drag. my theory is that it will slightly beat both cars unless there are corners, in which case I think the xfr will begin to have the edge. there is a performance pack optioned e63 which may be able to hold it's own but not my standard version.
interestingly the lack of love for e63 at least yielded this gem of a video albeit of the slower wagon:

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great result though !

 

[John]

good question, and as SPX says , the gearbox on the e55 probably comes into play though the age of the e55 could have also played a role. Also a car with lots of torque can be hard to properly launch. I would be surprised if either the e55 or the xfr could get the jump on the e63. the transmission has imperceptible lag when it is pushed and coupled with that linear throttle response, it is very very easy to drag. my theory is that it will slightly beat both cars unless there are corners, in which case I think the xfr will begin to have the edge. there is a performance pack optioned e63 which may be able to hold it's own but not my standard version.

Yeah, that 8 speed will mean the engine has to work less hard through the gears and the changes are a lot faster on that XF than the old 5g.

Yes, I remember the fun trying to get mine off the line - part of the challenge learning what throttle level to get it off the line without engaging the traction control.

It was easier before I modified it though understandably!

They are pretty close and a lot of it will come down to the driver.

 

[MrRight]

Yeah, that 8 speed will mean the engine has to work less hard through the gears and the changes are a lot faster on that XF than the old 5g.

Yes, I remember the fun trying to get mine off the line - part of the challenge learning what throttle level to get it off the line without engaging the traction control.

It was easier before I modified it though understandably!

They are pretty close and a lot of it will come down to the driver.

true and I'm not sure how comfortable the e55 was compared to the xfr but I imagine the e55 is very similar to the e63 which I think has an incredibly soft cotton wool ride. the xfr was good but struggled with anything more than moderate imperfections in the road from memory. I think the e variants probably also win the sound contest ? the xfr probably wins on the handling .

I want to pitch these two against each other, once the c is back on summer tyres, I'll record some 0 to 60 times...

 

[StringfellowHawke]

Good review mr right. It echoes my thoughts on the w211 e63. It seems like you have already discovered it’s not a car that’s suited as B road blaster, although it can do it not where it’s most at home. It much happier on a roads with sweeping bends then proper twisties.

You are also correct about the gearbox. In manual mode you do need to be reading the road and selecting your chosen gear a couple of seconds before requiring it due to the inherent lag. It really is the cars Achilles heel and the biggest detriment to a truly involving drive IMO. Unfortunately I think it’s a case of where gearbox technology was in the 2000s compared to the double clutch systems we have now.

You have to bear in mind the car has been designed to convey German businessmen in comfort between power lunches in Berlin and Stuttgart at 150mph. So it does isolate you from the sense of speed certainty at the national limits we have in the UK. If it were a plane I think it would be akin to Concorde which when doing mach 2 you wouldn’t even realise.

If you look at it though this lens it all makes sense. If you want a more involving drive or in plane terms more of a f16, a m3 or 911 would be more suited.

Although as a bhp/£ proposition few other cars come close.

 

[MrRight]

Good review mr right. It echoes my thoughts on the w211 e63. It seems like you have already discovered it’s not a car that’s suited as B road blaster, although it can do it not where it’s most at home. It much happier on a roads with sweeping bends then proper twisties.

You are also correct about the gearbox. In manual mode you do need to be reading the road and selecting your chosen gear a couple of seconds before requiring it due to the inherent lag. It really is the cars Achilles heel and the biggest detriment to a truly involving drive IMO. Unfortunately I think it’s a case of where gearbox technology was in the 2000s compared to the double clutch systems we have now.

You have to bear in mind the car has been designed to convey German businessmen in comfort between power lunches in Berlin and Stuttgart at 150mph. So it does isolate you from the sense of speed certainty at the national limits we have in the UK. If it were a plane I think it would be akin to Concorde which when doing mach 2 you wouldn’t even realise.

If you look at it though this lens it all makes sense. If you want a more involving drive or in plane terms more of a f16, a m3 or 911 would be more suited.

Although as a bhp/£ proposition few other cars come close.

yes indeed, it is completely fulfilling its remit as my family taxi. it sits in traffic a lot of the time, shoots out of traffic lights some of the time and the does a couple of hundred miles a week on the motorway .it is a bit quiet from a sound perspective but like any good musical instrument, one needs to learn how to play it. i would struggle to find a 500hp luxury car as comfortable as this at any price point. overall score for the reasons I got it = 10 /10.

the gearbox is great in comfort mode for its primary goal and when pushing on , i have no complaints about sport mode other than its desire to short shift into 2nd and third however I'm now used to it completely.

my canyon Carver is the c class estate, which is as good as an alfa QV or an M4 at cornering but adds for more entertainment and joy along the way. it is just not a nice looking lump, is all but I'm inside it , not outside thank the lord for that.

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

good question, and as SPX says , the gearbox on the e55 probably comes into play though the age of the e55 could have also played a role. Also a car with lots of torque can be hard to properly launch. I would be surprised if either the e55 or the xfr could get the jump on the e63. the transmission has imperceptible lag when it is pushed and coupled with that linear throttle response, it is very very easy to drag. my theory is that it will slightly beat both cars unless there are corners, in which case I think the xfr will begin to have the edge. there is a performance pack optioned e63 which may be able to hold it's own but not my standard version.
interestingly the lack of love for e63 at least yielded this gem of a video albeit of the slower wagon:

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great result though !

I agree, the throttle response is more linear and the torque builds higher up the rev range, making it much easier to consistently get off the line than a forced induction engine, and also easier to judge when accelerating hard out of bends, but it’s less dramatic in it’s delivery.

 

[John]

true and I'm not sure how comfortable the e55 was compared to the xfr but I imagine the e55 is very similar to the e63 which I think has an incredibly soft cotton wool ride. the xfr was good but struggled with anything more than moderate imperfections in the road from memory. I think the e variants probably also win the sound contest ? the xfr probably wins on the handling

I think the XFR rides on standard suspension vs. AMGs on AirMATIC which would be night and day. The setup of AirMATIC on the E55K was sublime and pretty much spot on for me.

You are also correct about the gearbox. In manual mode you do need to be reading the road and selecting your chosen gear a couple of seconds before requiring it due to the inherent lag. It really is the cars Achilles heel and the biggest detriment to a truly involving drive IMO. Unfortunately I think it’s a case of where gearbox technology was in the 2000s compared to the double clutch systems we have now.

Yes, I never used the buttons as I remember this from the E55. Absolute shyte.

I found leaving it in sport mode and using the right speed for a bend worked well.

These cars deliver enough power to brush off a slightly-tall gear for the revs though so I never had any issues.

 

[Jobsworth]

My, you have walked a bit of a similar path to me. I've resisted the urge for a 6.2 to this point, but I have always fancied one. I currently have an S205 C63 biturbo which I love. Despite that I'm still attached to my E46 M3, although it is a little too focussed for the road...



I built it in 2008, and it still has ability far above my limits!