C32 AMG hp increase options..

[--phill--]

ok hi all this is my first MB post..

hopefully getting a C32 AMG December/january time.

ok im getting really confused with the tuning information out there folks as an example:

Mercedesperformance:

C32 Stage 1- ECU & Pulley upgrade - 400 HP/ 500NM £2975.14 fitted but not inc vat so more like £3400

yet two places i-c-t tuning and nowack do 30bhp from ECU flash = 379bhp for around £350 ten times less for just 20hp less. and even the same company do ECU flash for 30hp

now the thing is, most MB tuning companies are quoting around £2500 for 400bhp which is a generous 50hp more. yet when looknig across the pond to VAG/Audi you get those gains 40hp (50 with miltek) from a Revo,Jabba,AMD remap at also £250-350

so my question is, starting at 349bhp. getting the 200cell sports cats + BMC CDA induction (as per every other normal car) ecu remap should in theory allow for 390-395bhp. cost = £350 for map, £450 x 2 cats + bmc cda £350 = £1150 three times less for what should be just 5 hp less.

what is it with these companies and cams + valve springs + pulleys etc for 400hp ?

Just seems strange that a 3.2 V6 SOHC 18 V Supercharged Mercedes engine cant map another 50 hp with some basic breathing mods seen as Vag mobiles can do it for £350 on 1.9 diesels and 1.8 T petrols ?

dunno if i made myself clear or not, sure pulleys could be used to gain 450bhp but out of every and i think ive visited every tuning site for C32 AMG + forums ive heard no mention of time honoured mods i.e catback, intercooler, induction remap everyone seems to be going with these £3500 pulley systems

any help ?

 

[andy_cyp]

Right.........Were shall i start

1st of all stay away from mercedes performance, i and quite a few others here have bad experience from them.

An ecu flash will provide you with no more than 10/12 bhp, if it was a turbo car then youde get more.

Induction kits...Again replacing the panel filters with an aftermarket "K&N GREEN " will get you no more than 3/4 bhp, i went for the sl55 induction boxes/hoses/y pipe on my C32, far better than std, approx 8/10bhp with the k&n panel filters too.

Cat back exhausts...... i cant comment on this as ive left mine alone, i dont really fancy chucking my amg embossed one away for a replacement, but what i did do was to remove the centre muffler/resonator, this gives better resposivness and a bit more throatier engine note, no bhp gains from this but passed its mot without it and car felt a lot more willing.

All in all ive spent close to £600 on the above ang have gained approx 40bhp and 45 ftlb torque.Dynoed it at 384hp/378lb torque.

To get over the 400hp mark you have to get the pulley conversion, and that dont come cheap as it needs to be coupled with there/whoevers software for optimum performance.

Ive looked extensivly at kleemann/carlsson/mkb/brabus and birds.

£2.5k will get you straight from 349hp to 404bhp stage1, stage 2 includes cams and sport exhaust system, that will get you close to the 450 mark and the price rises horrifically too.

All in all modding a C32 aint cheap.

If you require any additional info dont hesitate to ask.

Modding a

 

[BTB 500]

Just seems strange that a 3.2 V6 SOHC 18 V Supercharged Mercedes engine cant map another 50 hp with some basic breathing mods seen as Vag mobiles can do it for £350 on 1.9 diesels and 1.8 T petrols ?

You're not comparing like with like.

Plugging in a replacement chip that allows a turbocharged engine to run at higher boost is very quick & simple (= cheap).

A supercharger is mechanically driven, so you've got to make physical changes (pulley ratios etc.) to make it spin faster and get higher boost pressure ... as well as software changes. This is obviously more expensive.

Remember too that an AMG engine is at a reasonably high state of tune to start off with (e.g. VW's new R32 only produces 245 bhp compared to the C32's 349). So there's a lot less scope for basic "quick win" mods.

 

[stats007]

Hmmn not strictly true. In my experience an ECU remap for a NA engine from a reputable company will get you up to a 10% increase in power. Superchips typically offer around 15bhp for my car whereas DMS and Torquing BHP offer 30 with dyno results to match.

The boost pressure can be upped in the ECU without changing the pulley for another slight increase on supercharged cars - you should be looking at at least a 30bhp increase from a simple remap on a C32 AMG - another forum member has had his C32 remapped in this fashion and has dynoed at 384bhp (though we know assumed drivetrain losses can be debatable).

Turbos are far easier to increase bhp with however, as Bill has mentioned.

 

[andy_cyp]

Hmmn not strictly true. In my experience an ECU remap for a NA engine from a reputable company will get you up to a 10% increase in power. Superchips typically offer around 15bhp for my car whereas DMS and Torquing BHP offer 30 with dyno results to match.

The boost pressure can be upped in the ECU without changing the pulley for another slight increase on supercharged cars - you should be looking at at least a 30bhp increase from a simple remap on a C32 AMG - another forum member has had his C32 remapped in this fashion and has dynoed at 384bhp (though we know assumed drivetrain losses can be debatable).

Turbos are far easier to increase bhp with however, as Bill has mentioned.

It was me that dyneod at 384 but that wasnt a stand alone remap , other things modded too to achieve that figure.

I spoke to dms a while ago and they indeed qouted 25/30bhp+ but at a cost of £850.00 for the c32 engine, they also said it would be better to give the tranny a software upgrade to compliment the extra horses and to shift at higher rpms, total cost from dms was £1500.00.......... hmmm i dunno

 

[stats007]

It wasn't you I was thinking of Andy, but another chap who went to Torquing BHP from MBOC. That was a straight forward remap and slight increase in boost pressure. Whilst I think DMS are good, they have always been the most expensive around.

 

[--phill--]

morning.

so what ive gathered then is that MP are a no go why ? and tuning companies have differening approaches to getting an extra 30-40 bhp. some can remap and some needs cams, pulleys ? so in this sense im even more confused unless its simply a case of being ripped off.

what i know know for definate having seen quite a few RR`d graphs online and peoples stats on forums is that it seems 349 hp is optomistic on this engine is this right ? i.e Andy you have a v.nice 384 bhp but what was your starting bhp/lbft ?

btw i think this all v.interesting. what made you choose the SL55 airbox`s over a twin BMC CDA with custom feed route ? ohh and do they sound nice ?

 

[GrahamC230K]

Hmmn not strictly true. In my experience an ECU remap for a NA engine from a reputable company will get you up to a 10% increase in power. Superchips typically offer around 15bhp for my car whereas DMS and Torquing BHP offer 30 with dyno results to match.

The boost pressure can be upped in the ECU without changing the pulley for another slight increase on supercharged cars - you should be looking at at least a 30bhp increase from a simple remap on a C32 AMG - another forum member has had his C32 remapped in this fashion and has dynoed at 384bhp (though we know assumed drivetrain losses can be debatable).

I have never heard or Torquing BHP, but after DMS' less than impressive 0 BHP increase remap, I have mailed them to see if they think they can do better for my car!

Where does your recommendation for them come from Stats? I hope they are good enough to admit they cannot offer anything either if they cannot.

If they can deliver 30% on a NA car, I would be happy with that. DMS don't even condone Dyno testing which is worrying/interesting!

 

[SG CL500]

I have never heard or Torquing BHP...

Neither have I and they're just down the road! Would be interested to hear how you get on.

 

[Vips]

Phill, You already have a fantastic car, which is superfast.

Why on earth would you go through all that hassle for a few extra horsepower, bearing in mind that tinkering with a highly tuned engine could lead to potential problems later. Besides, How fast do you want to go on UK roads, seeing that on every street there's a camera and if you miss them, some bobby with nothing better to do will be waiting on the side streets with his laser!!!!

Oh and definately stay away from Mercedesperformance!!!

 

[stats007]

I have never heard or Torquing BHP, but after DMS' less than impressive 0 BHP increase remap, I have mailed them to see if they think they can do better for my car!

Where does your recommendation for them come from Stats? I hope they are good enough to admit they cannot offer anything either if they cannot.

If they can deliver 30% on a NA car, I would be happy with that. DMS don't even condone Dyno testing which is worrying/interesting!

Firstly it's 10%! - on a 300bhp car that equates to 30bhp.

The recommendation comes a Mercedes Benz Owner's Club member who had his C32 remapped - I have also been speaking to them on a technical level as to what their approach is to remapping as I hadn't heard of them previously. Their price is competitive and they are willing to discount if a GTG is organised and a number of cars are worked on using their mobile service.

With regard to Mercedes Performance, they appear to be middle men - they don't do any ECU tuning themselves - everything is contracted out.

 

[--phill--]

Phill, You already have a fantastic car, which is superfast.

why thankyou but im not purchasing my C32 AMG until December/january

the reason is simple, to be faster. dont forget the C32 amg is "only" 216 bhp pertonne a UK STi Prodrive with 305/310 hp is 210 bhp pertonne so you can see that amongst the classy and restrained image, the exellent interior build, specs and best safety in the world for any vehicle in this class and of course the badge it keeps a STi in check but no more i wont argue that my Cee will be used for racing around as for some its riding on torque for others track days etc.. but as far as im concerned its a very fast saloon with potencial in terms of both handling and tuning to blitz those pesky EVO warriors and STi Chav`s at least in a straight line (which for the most part is what UK overtaking racing is about).
at 216bhp pertonne its not like your local scoob,evo, jap turbo etc.. are gonna say they wasted you but at the same token there gonna think they can keep up with a Mercedes AMG ! in their 10k rice wagon

let alone mr annoying 340bhp M3 driver who is increasingly everywhere as prices drop. they wont be dropped at 349 from a heavy c32 but nor can they cheaply tune their engine as its N/A to 420bhp either with lbft that walks all over them.

i think the new M3 has 400hp also, so for me the latest mid sized saloon benchmark is 400bhp ala new M3, Mitsi EVO FQ400 jaguar S-type R 400hp.
i was contemplating getting a Type-r and tuning to 450 but that thing is a real near edit*1900kg heffer and thats without driver and doenst handle anywhere near aswell as the C` with its 1635kg kerbweight.

ohh btw i intend to get lighter wheels and possibly Recaro seats electric recline or maybe just stock recliners to get down to 1580kg with 400hp = 257 bhp pertonne 0-100 mph in 9.99 secs



p.s a (slightly lightened) 425 hp ( 2.5k spent) will have same hp pertonne as the new M5 !

 

[stats007]

Hi Phil,

I think you're a little obsessed with figures! Peak power and power to weight ratios will give you a good indication of how a car will perform but won't tell you the nature of that power. A broad torque curve (logarithmic) is far more useful than a linear or exponential one with a higher peak value - again this is all related to the gearing of the car etc. 0 - 100 - 0 times are generally more useful - as are 50 - 70 in-gear times.

A standard C32 AMG is quicker than a stock M3 to 100mph and back again despite the former's increased weight and lower power to weight ratio.

 

[--phill--]

Hi Phil,

I think you're a little obsessed with figures! Peak power and power to weight ratios will give you a good indication of how a car will perform but won't tell you the nature of that power. A broad torque curve (logarithmic) is far more useful than a linear or exponential one with a higher peak value - again this is all related to the gearing of the car etc. 0 - 100 - 0 times are generally more useful - as are 50 - 70 in-gear times.

A standard C32 AMG is quicker than a stock M3 to 100mph and back again despite the former's increased weight and lower power to weight ratio.

i agree to some extent. however i still do feel that 400bhp is needed to give it the serious shove an AMG brand derserves and respect on the road
anyways thats moving away from the orginial post of tuning the c32 amg..
so il draw a line under that
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see ^^


Who are the Best Mercedes Tuners in the UK at this moment regardless of if they use euro tuners maps/parts

 

[stats007]

Brabus - followed by Vath / Kleeman etc They all have dealers here.

 

[--phill--]

problem is on brabus website i couldnt find the c32 amg tuning section obviously as they tune c32 to c32 brabus spec so bascially there a no go.

Andy can you do a vid si i can hear your car m8. id be interested in the induction noise the Sl intakes makes, btw have you made a custom feed or kept stock ?

 

[stats007]

Why don't you speak to them and discuss your options? The B11 conversion for the M113 is, IMO, pointless however - over £3k for a 30bhp increase from high profile cams.

Another option may be HPS who are based in the US though ship kits Worldwide. They are half the price of Kleeman.

 

[--phill--]

hmm... perhaps sportscats + BMC or GroupeM induction tied in with remap will see 400 or at least 390.

ive seen this though...

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_472_2099_3357/products_id/13692

£984.716 for 30bhp

so you see its confusing to me, 30 hp from pulleys but does this mean if you map you can gain a further 20hp on top of the 30 the pulleys gave you ?

also this seems at first perfect..

£1,581.36 for - massive 400 HP (50-60 RWHP) - 400 FT-LB (50-60 RWTQ) which is my limit for tuning in terms of cost.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_472_2099_3362/products_id/13699

as you can see Evosport/Vivid racing is a decent site for us AMG owners (has anyone seen this before ??) but its in the US, what are the terms and condtions for importing ??
who could professionally fit the pulleys in the UK without charging an extra £10000, how much VAT,import duty, shipping etc..

this is the main point of confusion.

check out there £3000 stage II with huge gains and torque... now try asking someone in this country to give you - 435 HP (75-85 RWHP) - 420 FT-LB (70-80 RWTQ) for £3k it would be more like £9k over here

makes me mad when turbo cars can map 50hp for £350

 

[stats007]

There are plenty of options - check what the Nm rating of your gearbox is however before going too far. Also cooling etc is always an issue with this sort of thing.

A pulley upgrade will increase boost pressure, a remap will need to be done for this anyway, though you should get a gain for the remap based on stricter fuel timing on the basis you'll use Optimax or similar higher RON fuel.

 

[--phill--]

who do uprated intercoolers ?