C43 Full lock low speed judder

gr4h4m

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Hello from a newbie,

We have just got our second Mercedes, I talked the wife out of her Audi and into a Mercedes.

We wanted to get a car with reasonable power and settled on a C43 after lots of thinking. We want to keep it for a good few years so we purchased a pre-registered car as it happened to be in the options that she was looking for. (Mainly all black)

The car has a low speed judder where the front wheels feel like they are being pushed across the road. I have had the car back at the dealers (Stockport Manchester) and they say is normal. I took a quick vid and the car seems to push the tyre onto its sidewall which causes it to skid across the surface. This happens on tarmac at low speeds and when you pull out of a junction. A quick search shows some 4-matic drivers saying the same, has anyone got a c43 and is it doing the same thing? It feels really bad in the car, I cant believe that this would seen as ok in development?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLuMcjSS838

Thanks for any help.
 

st13phil

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Hi and welcome.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is at least the third thread now running about this. You may get a better / more coherent view of what others have or have not found if you ask a mod to merge this and the other two threads.
 

bellers

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My 2016 c63 did it on full lock the wheels seemed to be under positive camber and pushed the tyre on the wheel on the outside of the turn under the rim giving the impression of a stuttering judder.
 
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gr4h4m

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Hi and welcome.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is at least the third thread now running about this. You may get a better / more coherent view of what others have or have not found if you ask a mod to merge this and the other two threads.
Sorry I missed them in the search, do you have any links I could use.
 

st13phil

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Peter DLM

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My E63 is doing this really badly ATM, but I don't see why some people have their knickers in a twist over it.:dk:
 

st13phil

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My E63 is doing this really badly ATM, but I don't see why some people have their knickers in a twist over it.:dk:
I don't understand the angst either.

Angie's SLK55 does it quite violently now that temperatures are around zero, but my E63 has stopped doing it completely since I fitted a set of Michelin PA4's.

But then what do I know? It's clearly a design fault that Mercedes are responsible for :rolleyes:
 

Nitro

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Our 2012 C63 did this, went away with new front tyres but has now come back after approx 3,000 miles wear.
Perhaps the extra height of new tyre tread blocks is more flexible and so more forgiving?
 

st13phil

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Perhaps the extra height of new tyre tread blocks is more flexible and so more forgiving?
That and the lower temperature causing the tyre carcass to stiffen and the grip level to drop.
 

bellers

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Mite be better with winter tyres on as they are a softer compound
 
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gr4h4m

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I don't understand the angst either.

Angie's SLK55 does it quite violently now that temperatures are around zero, but my E63 has stopped doing it completely since I fitted a set of Michelin PA4's.

But then what do I know? It's clearly a design fault that Mercedes are responsible for :rolleyes:
Intresting, I'm starting to think that the tyres are too soft coupled with the sidewalls on the Dunlop Sport maxx tyres being rounded compared to the pilot sport, which are much more square.
The Mercedes cars seem to run much more ackermann angle than any other manufacturers I have previously owned.

We previously run an Audi S5 convertible on pilot sport and we never had this issue? This must be an issue that could be engineered out or all cars would do it, which they dont, 4 wheel drive or not. It doesn't feel right from behind the wheel and these are not exactly low cost.
 

bellers

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You are correct. The 2 different angles allow the 2 prescribed arc of the tyre tracks to try push the outer wheel away from the tyre. Probably why the outer edges feather slightly as though the tracking is out when it isn't. That combined with the horrendous camber when on full lock exaggerating the effect.
 

mgooda

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Believe me, yes it's the Ackermann effect which can affect all cars in certain ways - however this is seriously exaggerated by being 4wd. Those suggesting stiffer tyre walls and temperature are correct also.

However, this particular model does this in 30 degree heat on very warm tyres also - and it is as bad! More so I've discovered on 19" rims too.

My dealer, albeit shocked by just how exaggerated it is , along with MBUK define it as normal also and there is no fix.

I'm of a similar opinion to a couple of other owners, it's a result of no compromise in the steering and suspension geometry that makes the car what it is - I'm reserved to accepting its here to stay.
 

dejongj

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My E63 is doing this really badly ATM, but I don't see why some people have their knickers in a twist over it.:dk:
My GL class never did this ever. Only other cars I've had this happen to under full lock is an Audi Quattro and a fully mechanical 4x4 when it is engaged on a non slippery surface.

My GLC43 is now no longer doing it at just full lock, but also at half lock turning into out road. A corner I used to take easily at about 30-40 and now have to take at about 10mph.

Is that knickers in a twist to want to discuss it? I don't think it is.
 

mgooda

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dejongj said:
My GL class never did this ever. Only other cars I've had this happen to under full lock is an Audi Quattro and a fully mechanical 4x4 when it is engaged on a non slippery surface. My GLC43 is now no longer doing it at just full lock, but also at half lock turning into out road. A corner I used to take easily at about 30-40 and now have to take at about 10mph. Is that knickers in a twist to want to discuss it? I don't think it is.
It's not knickers in twist, and with the greatest respect to all it needs to be experienced in this vehicle to believe it.

My C43 does this at varying degrees of steering angle just like yours.
 

st13phil

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However, this particular model does this in 30 degree heat on very warm tyres also - and it is as bad! More so I've discovered on 19" rims too.
That's a couple of interesting extra data points. My guess is that the 4WD accentuates the effect that we see on pretty much all 2WD Mercedes cars with wide, low-profile, tyres fitted and the combined effect of tyre scrub on full lock due to the choice of suspension geometry plus an element of rotational "control" due to the front wheels being driven gives the result people are experiencing.
My dealer, albeit shocked by just how exaggerated it is , along with MBUK define it as normal also and there is no fix.

I'm of a similar opinion to a couple of other owners, it's a result of no compromise in the steering and suspension geometry that makes the car what it is - I'm reserved to accepting its here to stay.
I think you've hit the nail on the head: Mercedes have clearly picked the suspension geometry they have to give the driving dynamics they want, and they are fully aware that it results in this unusual / unpleasant, but harmless, effect when manoeuvring at low speed on or near full lock. It's without question that it could be engineered out if different suspension geometry were chosen, but the fact it hasn't been suggests that would result in a compromise in driving dynamics that Mercedes are not prepared to make.
 

dejongj

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Whilst I could comprehend that, I don't actually believe they've done that on purpose. I think that explanation has come after the effect. Surely if you know the car has such characteristics then you'd describe that and preempt any complaints by describing it in the manual. Further more the 'official' fix according to my garage is to fit winter tyres, they really should come clean with such information prior to buying the vehicle.

On full lock was embarrassing enough getting out of our drive way, parking up the car, dropping the children off in school. But it is much worse now, can't even turn into our road without this happening, nor go round and round in multi-storey carpark.

We have no purpose build race car here, this is an ordinary road car.
 

ShaneyB

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Whilst I could comprehend that, I don't actually believe they've done that on purpose. I think that explanation has come after the effect. Surely if you know the car has such characteristics then you'd describe that and preempt any complaints by describing it in the manual. Further more the 'official' fix according to my garage is to fit winter tyres, they really should come clean with such information prior to buying the vehicle.

On full lock was embarrassing enough getting out of our drive way, parking up the car, dropping the children off in school. But it is much worse now, can't even turn into our road without this happening, nor go round and round in multi-storey carpark.

We have no purpose build race car here, this is an ordinary road car.
Winter tyres didn't change this characteristic on any of my Quattro's. MB may be different....
 

Riverside Red

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All four of my previous Mercs have done it to some extent, particularly reversing off the drive or parking at full lock. Just think it's a "feature" of the steering geometry on full lock.

Four Mercs were/are:

58 plate W219 CLS 320
61 plate W218 CLS 350
12 plate R172 SLK55 AMG
66 plate W205 C63

RR
 

dejongj

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Winter tyres didn't change this characteristic on any of my Quattro's. MB may be different....
I'm most definitely no buying them with my own hard earned cash to discover that. If Mercedes decides that is the only way to fix/mask the problem but don't tell customers that before buying the car then either they can supply them to me, or they can have the car back.
 

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