Calls for 'speed-limiting' cars

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Satch, Dec 30, 2008.

  1. Satch

    Satch Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    "Speed-limiting devices should be fitted to cars on a voluntary basis to help save lives and cut carbon emissions, according to a new report.

    The government's transport advisers claim the technology would cut road accidents with injuries by 29%.

    The device automatically slows a car down to within the limit for the road on which it is being driven.

    But charity Safe Speed says the devices are dangerous because they encourage drivers to enter a "zombie mode".

    Ministers are planning to help councils draw up digital maps with details of the legal speed on every road. "


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7803997.stm

    Here we go again, yet another stalking horse for road pricing.

    What bug the hell out of me is that the "Motorists Forum", which is claimed to fully support such a move, contains no motorists, just representatives of worthy bodies.

    Stunningly bad idea.
     
  2. maddog

    maddog Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Apparently the DOT have called this "speculation" i suspect its another non-story
     
  3. Biscuit

    Biscuit Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    i would hate to have this in my car but sooner or later its going to happen...

    they might do a trial with some cars and some insurance co's joining in.

    upside for the volunteers - cheaper motoring (insurance down) maybe even cut price congestion charging, road tsx etc etc.

    upside for govt - they get to see if it works.

    i've got to add if i was giving my son the keys to a car at 18 just after he passed his test i might be interested. he is two right now so a little way off...
     
  4. OP
    OP
    Satch

    Satch Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Then it is "speculation" from the main body that help forms Government Transport policy.

    Our remit:

    Commission was formed by the current Government with a remit as follows:

    "Providing policy advice via evidence based reports on:

    Future policy options, so-called 'blue-sky thinking' on future strategic issues
    Policy issues spanning departmental boundaries (i.e. environment, social, etc.)
    Best practice amongst local authorities/delivery agencies to encourage improved performance and to highlight barriers to best practice
    Comparisons with European/International policy initiatives and dissemination of best practice
    The impact of new technology on future policy options
    Specific issues as requested by the Department for Transport (DfT)
    Refreshing the transport debate, based on published reports and with a view to raising the overall level of 'The Transport Debate' and where possible to build consensus among stakeholders."


    The "Motorists Forum" is a just a captive subset of the Commission for Integrated Transport

    Remember this is the body which self proclaims:

    UK an international leader in road pricing, says Government's transport advisor

    "The Commission for Integrated Transport today praised UK progress on road pricing. Launching the Commission's latest report on road pricing around the world, Commission Chairman Peter Hendy told a London conference:

    "The Government's work towards national road pricing through local pilots puts it right at the head of the international field. The UK and the Netherlands are the only countries in the world who currently have a strategy to introduce national road pricing. However, we believe the UK's learning-by-doing approach is the best way to minimize risks and make early progress."
    Mr Hendy called on the UK Government to maintain the momentum on road-pricing:

    "In particular, CfIT will be supportive of moving the public debate forward as soon as Government feels comfortable with setting out a national framework within which local schemes can operate. Our work, and that of Sir Rod Eddington, sets out the issues - and, in due course, the decisions - which need careful analysis."


    So, an open agenda at work here then. This is nothing to do with road safety: all about justifying the production of digital road mapping for local road pricing schemes but on "safety" grounds now that the Manchester C-charge has been thrown out.
     
  5. PJH

    PJH Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Restricting speed like this would mean people wouldn't need to pay attention to their speed any more.

    Lots of crashes happen below the speed limit. So no gain in safety there.

    Also, this would increase the frustration of being behind a slower vehicle, ie HGV, because their speed limits are different from car speed limits.
    Currently most HGVs travel up to 60 mph on national limit single carriageways when their limit is 40 mph.

    Edit:- Another thought. Digital road mapping exists on SatNavs already. But many maps are out of date.
    So when a speed limit is changed or extended how soon would these devices get it right ?

    A compulsory anti-collision device would be a better thing to have. But crashes would still occur.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  6. W210 Fan

    W210 Fan Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I have 9 points on my license so you can see which camp I am in, I actually support this, buses, coaches, lorries and you may not know this but some military vehicles are limited, I have been chatting to my brothers new girlfriend recently and she comes from a communist background were you have no choice in anything and she prefers the west way were you have choice in everything, I said the west isnt always better as it gives stupid people the choice to do what they want, and in this instance its people hammering down the motorway at what speed they want, we already know that driving skill is not related to wallet size, it isnt always related to age either, you either have it or you dont, and I bet a lot of people who travel over 70mph on a motorway dont, anybody can travel quickly in a straight line but can you read far enough ahead and guage reactions of other drivers well? we all say we can as we wont be around to admit we cant when we didnt, it is a simple fact that there is an increased probability of having an accident the faster you go, and dont say you saw Lewis Hamilton driving quickly on the telly so it must be ok, he is 100X better driver than we will ever be, and dont say you did a track day once so you know how to handle a car, those are the ones who should set an example to all the idiots who chow down the outside lane and think they can drive,

    unfortunately having been through the UK law system recently it is very clear that the law is there for the masses, there will be people who can handle a car on its 155 limiter without problems but how do you decide who can and who cant and how do you identifiy yourselves so you dont get pulled over when you howl past a cop car? you cant so a blanket 70 speed limit is in place, obviously lower on different roads and for a reason, its to protect the nice people from the stupid people as the stupid ones out number the nice ones at an alarming ratio,

    Also a quick point about the `zombie mode` I would say its no more zombie than sitting on your cruise control,

    I shall leave you with a thought, I have already outlines why I believe the law to be there and its there for a good reason so why do you need to travel above the speed limit, as far as im concerned its bad time managment then speeding to make up time, so with a bit more planning maybe you dont need to speed, there will always be a time when you want a blast down a B road on a sunday morning but if you get caught then you have to accept it, dont do the crime if you cant do the time etc

    Mark the reformed speeder,
     
  7. jeremytaylor

    jeremytaylor Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I heard this whilst half asleep this morning and wondered who this 'Motorists Forum' is. Its just part of another government quango, the 'Commission for Integrated Transport' (oh, how we marvel at their successes!!:rolleyes: )

    I use my speed limiter occassionally, and the thought of everyone driving in this way would, literally send me to sleep! As you say, stunningly bad idea. Will this government ever learn?!?!?
     
  8. MBManInKen

    MBManInKen Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    From what I heard on radio 4 this morning, the scheme is voluntary.

    In fact, I do this already all the time by using speedtronic. It allows me to focus my attention on what happens on the road rather than staring at the speedometer all of the time.
     
  9. crockers

    crockers MB Club Veteran

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    I have such a device fitted to my car -- albeit a voluntary one


    SPEEDTRONIC.........:rock:

    I use it quite a lot especially around towns..........
     
  10. Ade B

    Ade B Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I just use the left pedal.

    Cue various rants on the nanny state vs. individual freedom.

    On a voluntary basis is it really a bad idea, especially if there are financial incentives..

    I like the idea of every car having distronic, driving up the M1/M6 before Christmas it baffles and irritates me how just about everyone sits a car length behind the car in front when the traffic bunches. The same people no doubt complain when they get stuck in tailbacks due to a six car pile up caused by similar actions..

    Ade
     
  11. prprandall51

    prprandall51 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    I am proud to say that, when I was working at TeleAtlas and we were approached by the Government to collect and digitise speed limit data for exactly this purpose, we told them to stick it up their jumper.

    Apart from the principle at stake here (nanny state, self-regulation, a duty of care, erosion of responsibility for one's own actions) I can't imagine a faster route into the law courts than the first fatal crash arising from this half-baked idiocy.

    Although I fully support speed limits and abide by them when many do not, it is a catastrophic error to prevent vehicles being able to accelerate out of a problem. There is currently a thread running elsewhere on the forum about a member who accelerated out of the way of an oncoming, out-of-control lorry. What about a mis-judged overtake in a 40mph zone that actually requires 45 - 47mph to get out of safely? Would the government rather pay its emergency services to mop up the mess of a head-on collision and then say "Well, at least when he hit the school bus of children, he wasn't exceeding the speed limit"?
     
  12. mattc

    mattc Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Ask yourself how long it would remain "voluntary".

    Suspect it would not be retrofitted to existing cars but to new ones only.
     
  13. crockers

    crockers MB Club Veteran

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    There goes another reason not to buy a new car...:D Just what the car industry needs like a hole in the head..
     
  14. MBManInKen

    MBManInKen Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    The point is that these systems do NOT prevent that, you can override them. In an auto you kick down to override the limiter.
     
  15. prprandall51

    prprandall51 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Where does it say that these systems can be overriden? If it does, what's the point of them? In fact, on the BBC site link it says:

    "The speed-limiting devices will then use satellite positioning to check a vehicle's location and when its speed exceeds the limit, power will be reduced and the brakes applied if necessary."

    That sounds like a system that cannot be overridden to me.
     
  16. MBManInKen

    MBManInKen Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    That's what the bloke who designed it told us on radio 4 this morning :rolleyes:.

    And the BBC article also says:

    And the point of allowing them to be overridden is precisely for the kind of situation you described and which the journalist on the today programme specifically asked about.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2008
  17. prprandall51

    prprandall51 Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    So, according to the BBC website, it's a system that "...when [the vehicle's] speed exceeds the limit, power will be reduced and the brakes applied if necessary."

    But, according to the designer, the system can be overridden - by what mechanism can that happen? I invariably use my accelerator to change my vehicle's speed but the text above says that the system will override my accelerator input. Here's some pointless rolly eyes, too: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  18. MBManInKen

    MBManInKen Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    see the full quote in my post above, which specifically mentions user override.

    Well, let's see: in the same way as currently you can override speedtronic, i.e. by kicking down the pedal?? Ah, yes, in fact he mentioned that specifically as a way to override...

    Sorry if I upset you by providing some facts, how awfully nasty of me :rolleyes:.
     
  19. OP
    OP
    Satch

    Satch Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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    Speed control has, along with road pricing, been part of the Euro car control dream for so long now it is engrained in the thinking that it is a "good thing" and many careers are built around it.

    "The speed limiter reduced mean speeds significantly on all types of urban roads with speed limits of 30, 40, 50 and 60kph speed limits. On rural roads the speed limiters were only effective in reducing mean speeds on 70kph speed limit roads in Sweden. On other stretches of roads (with speed limits of 80 and 90kph) no significant effect could be found. The researchers suggested this was due to traffic volume on these roads, with frequent platooning of vehicles.

    Having considered the results of this field trial and other research on speed limiters, the European MASTER Project recommended: "Preparation for the introduction of compulsory adaptive speed limiters should be started" (MASTER Project, 1999).

    Most powers of vehicle regulation have now passed from individual countries to the European Commission, and this poses a potential legal obstacle to the introduction of variable speed limiters. However, EU member states have retained some powers to legislate independently on matters affecting safety. This might enable the UK to introduce speed limiters independently, or to ask leave to do so on the grounds that trials by one member state would be in the interests of all.

    Legislation would set a date from which all new vehicles would have to be equipped with driver-operated variable speed limiters. A second date would be set from which all drivers with in-car speed limiters would have to use them. Owners of cars already on the road could be encouraged to retrofit speed limiters, for example through a temporary reduction in Vehicle Excise Duty (experiments in Germany in the late 1980s suggest that retrofitting would cost around £250 per vehicle).

    There would eventually be a legal obligation on drivers to set limiters to the prevailing speed limit, but control would remain in the driver’s hands. A driver-operated speed limiter would also allow the driver to break the speed limit in an emergency. "


    http://www.slower-speeds.org.uk/ks_sec8.htm

    Trouble is that the accident rate will fail to drop as predicted (or actually increase in the view of many because it encourages bunching and increases driver stress ) but the answer is simple because there obviously can be absolutely nothing wrong with the policy nor the theory: reduction of speed limits overall.

    The stuff about overiding the limiter has to be fraught with peril.
     
  20. HowardD

    HowardD Hardcore MB Enthusiast

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