Car control and driver skill

[jamesfuller]

Following on from Dieselmans thread 'whats the first car you drove'

Does learning in a car with no driver aids make you a better driver?

 

[renault12ts]

Yes...next question.

 

[cb1965]

Yes definitely, driver aids are all well and good, but if you reply on them to get you out of trouble one day they won't.

My advice to anyone wanting to learn how to handle a car properly is to go on a skidpan course where the cars are all old school and preferably RWD!

I was taught many years ago by a pro and they are still the best driving related lessons I ever learned!

 

[jamesfuller]

So that's assuming people are taught to lean on the drivers aids and push them to the limit, what about utilizing the systems to make the car better?

A modern car with driver aids is much more likely to have wide tyres, have less feedback to the driver, be quieter and more isolated inside.
All of the above are quite a disadvantage in low grip situations!

 

[ivan1983]

Im going to say no because these systems only kick in once the limit of grip has been reached.

If everyone learned how car dynamics react at the limit there will be a lot of people "learning" from expensive mistakes.

I guess for snow driving an aidless car would be better but then a set of winter tyres makes it more or less like driving in the wet.

It also takes a lot of training for car control at the limit to become an instinct rather than a concious process.
For example on my bike if having fun I can brake very hard, first loading up the front wheel then progressively increasing braking force. Where as I have been surprised a few times and grabbed a handful on front brake , locked up and had to release and reapply thus taking a lot longer to stop than if it had ABS. But maybe thats just me

 

[Deleted member 65149]

Does learning in a car with no driver aids make you a better driver?

Not necessarily in itself. Though probably a better driver than someone who's never driven without driver aids, because of having to gain a deeper understanding of car dynamics and road conditions. But that certainly doesn't make a good driver. Indeed, some driver aids are far less effective when the natural response to an emergency situation is to return to methods adopted in non-assisted cars. For instance ABS gets totally confused and ineffective if you cadence brake instead of pressing the pedal as hard as you can. IMHO learning to ride a motorbike first is the best option; when you get it wrong it usually hurts so you rapidly learn to get it right!

 

[wemorgan]

Does learning in a car with no driver aids make you a better driver?

No, but it almost certainly makes you old. What new car today doesn't have at least 1 driver aid? Even Lotus have ABS and ESP.

 

[flango]

No, how many people have learned to push a car to the limit with no driver aids? Not many, its a good way of learning car control understeer, oversteer, skid control etc in a car with no driver aids, then when you have done that you need to do the same again with one that has driver aids, the slalom demonstration is a great demonstration of how the two differ. Driver aids are designed to make the car safer when in the hands of idiots there's nothing the electronics can do that a skilled driver can't do in a car with no devices.

I know ABS can hit the brakes hundreds of times a second but it wont stop the car any quicker or make it more controllable than a skilled driver using cadence braking.

I think we are much safer in accidents due to the electronics but also in some way I think they are partly to blame for some of the standards of driving we see today.

 

[lxi]

When I bought my TVR Cerbera (4.5 nutter b4stard version) I asked if it had ABS. "No sir, TVR don't believe it is required". Ok then, does it have traction control? "No sir - that's for girls".

So you have 1050 kg car, over 400 bhp, an off or on clutch, 0-100 mph in 8 point something and the nearest things to driver aids are headlights & windscreen wipers - that sharpens the mind and I would suggest, makes one a better driver in terms of car control

 

[flango]

When I bought my TVR Cerbera (4.5 nutter b4stard version) I asked if it had ABS. "No sir, TVR don't believe it is required". Ok then, does it have traction control? "No sir - that's for girls".

So you have 1050 kg car, over 400 bhp, an off or on clutch, 0-100 mph in 8 point something and the nearest things to driver aids are headlights & windscreen wipers - that sharpens the mind and I would suggest, makes one a better driver in terms of car control

I love driving my mates Cerbera all that raw power, a true race car for the road and the growl of that AGP V8 flat plane crank engine is a sound that will never be matched by the AMG V8's British muscle at its best

 

[wemorgan]

Does learning in a car with no driver aids make you a better driver?

It's worth reminding ourselves of the original question.

I can't imagine if I learnt in a Morris Minor in the 60's with no driver aids or a new Ford Fiesta today, that the car would have made a difference either way. I suspect that the instructor, driving standards and congestion would be more significant.

 

[jamesfuller]

Some interesting points so far!

Abs of course only comes in to its own if you floor the pedal. So this would be alien to drivers of some years ago.

If driver aids work to achieve the same thing (increase traction to aid control) But are not considered an essential by all, does this mean winter tyres are a driver aid?

I can accept that more often than not driver aids will replace skill up to the point of physics taking over.

A point I find interesting is when Abs was introduced to touring cars in the early 90's (4 cylinder M3's I believe) It was fitted with a kill switch for some emergency situations. However, according to Don Grice, abs was worth a good few seconds a lap in the wet!

 

[Sp!ke]

Some driver aids are just incredible but they do take away the skill and fun out of driving.

Do a flying lap in something like a Caterham with no driver aids and then try the same in an M3 or something and the Caterham will be the one putting the biggest smile on your face.

Driver aids can also give you a false sense of security and lead to an increase roads speeds and therefore heightened risk of injury.

 

[martyz]

Put some cross ply tyres on,remove brake servo,power steering,synchromesh on gearbox,esp,abs,halogen/xenons,airbags,seat belts,swap door mirrors for wing mirrors.
Then go for a night drive in the rain on some fast road.......................still a "good driver"?

 

[spanner]

Synonym for "driver aids" is "fun limiter".

 

[flango]

A point I find interesting is when Abs was introduced to touring cars in the early 90's (4 cylinder M3's I believe) It was fitted with a kill switch for some emergency situations. However, according to Don Grice, abs was worth a good few seconds a lap in the wet!

Interesting enough WRC Rally cars don't have abs it is banned, as part of determining driver skill is not to fit driver aids therefore the skills of a good driver come out unlike a lot of other motorsport

 

[Deleted member 37751]

The worse 'driver aid' invented is power steering IMO, it makes a car far more direct without it.

 

[BTB 500]

Of course a lot of people died in crashes before driver aids were introduced, so they never got the chance to become 'better drivers'.

My first proper car as an 18 year old was a Viva HC 1100 on cross-plies. Had a lot of close calls in that, including two spins on wet bends (without hitting anything either time - pure luck). Had all the lights go out (including the dashboard illumination) while hacking down a sunken lane in Cornwall late at night - that was fun.

 

[jamesfuller]

I certainly find the simple light cars are much more rewarding to drive.

Interesting comments on cross ply tyres. If i'm pushing on I tend to prefer narrower tyres with lower grip as I like them to break loose sooner rather than later. A couple of chaps and myself in the KDCC used to run 'gone off' gravel tyres on tarmac events. They break away much sooner than tarmac tyres but have infinitely more feel.

 

[theogeor]

My first car was a RWD Mazda 323 (do you remember those..). It was not a bad car at all ... 1.3L and 60bhp or something like that... But that is not the point I want to make... The car was a real RWD and it did not take long to go sideways.... That enable both me and my brother how to handle and control a car in a safe way.. Growing in Cyprus we took advantage of the local salt lake during the summer... When it was dry it was the best place to power slide , do hand brakes,.. emergency stops and anything else it came in our mind from donuts to eights etc... There was no aids in that generation of cars.. Not even power steering... just servo brakes....
Learning to drive in the safe environment of the salt lake made me a better driver but at the same time a more careful one... I know the consequences and understand what the car will do it it goes beyond its limits.. Even with my current cars that they have so many aids I always have in mind what to do if for whatever reason I am in trouble. And in extreme conditions where the aids are not fully working like ice and snow the lessons learned 25 years or so ago are the ones that makes the difference

Theo