Car Testing and the Budget!

[The Boss]

As many of you young timers and old timers might be aware, Mercedes often conduct testing of cars before they launch them.. (do'h)

POINT 1.

You see all these test mules running around tallying up millions of miles of test data across the board...

But these millions of miles are quite possibly split over an ever increasing set of test cars (yes more test cars, even with technology, they need the tangible car to test too) thus, could it be possible that no test car actually does any major mileage?????? DO MERCEDES TEST MULE CARS ACTUALLY REPRESENT LONG TERM DURABILITY???

POINT 2.

With budget constraints, we are getting alot more car today than we were back in the days, thus high volumes contribute to the bottom line.. But is this enough????

DO MERCEDES TEST COMPONENTS THAT ARE THE BEST FOR ITS PURPOSE??????? AS WE AR ELED TO BELIEVE MERCEDES IS A PREMIUM PRODUCT, BUT IS IT REALLY???????

OR

DO THEY TEST COMPONENTS AND SELECT THE COMPOENT THAT IS DURABLE ONLY FOR THE WARRANTY PERIOD AND JUST BEYOND (AS AN AVERAGE MARKER OF DURABILITY) AND THEN THEY BOOST THEIR BOTTOM LINE PURE AND SIMPLY ON THE REPLACEMENT CONSUMABLES ON THE CAR?????

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My main point is, well is an integral part of a car that we purchase today actually designed and put together as we are led to believe in marketing literature, and how the media relates to the car.... ie.. the best, the most amazing, best material, quality, premium etc etc etc..

How much are we influenced with what the press say and how marketing guru's spin their car line up in such a way that we would believe anything..

My friend Raj, Director of the Creative Content Agency, pointed the following out to me the other day.. which got me thinking about the above!

When EXACTLY did SARS, Foot n Mouth, M1NM, Bird Flu and swine flu all stop being a threat? Oh yeah, when the media stopped talking about it.

 

[wemorgan]

Car design and manufacture is a virtual world these days. Years before even a mule is made computer simulations offer answers to engineers questions on; durability, noise vibration & harness, crashworthiness, ride & handling.

What then gets made is up to the budget on offer. Over to the bean counters....

 

[The Boss]

Car design and manufacture is a virtual world these days. Years before even a mule is made computer simulations offer answers to engineers questions on; durability, noise vibration & harness, crashworthiness, ride & handling.

What then gets made is up to the budget on offer. Over to the bean counters....

Bloody Accountants.. i knew i was part of the problem

 

[Sp!ke]

With the current climate, most manufacturers are having to make cuts somewhere.

Many of them think they can reduce R&D as a simple way to reduce money.

.... and then what happens?

Brakes fail and throttles stick and overnight, reputations for reliability are shattered.

I guess we should be thankful that mercedes sought to reduce costs elsewhere like on cheap steel and poor paint.

 

[grober]

Mercedes senior management is on record admitting that reliability problems on their models in the early 2000s, stemmed from the fact that, despite individual components [principally electronic in nature ] having been extensively bench tested, they had not been tested adequately as part of the car's integrated systems. This meant many problems arose due to unforeseen interactions or complete failure under real world conditions. The extensive development of the new W204 and subsequent models was supposed to combat this and this policy appears to have succeeded to a large extent. It is unfortunate that the recent blue efficiency injector problems may indicate they still have some way to go yet.

 

[The Boss]

Mercedes senior management is on record admitting that reliability problems on their models in the early 2000s, stemmed from the fact that, despite individual components [principally electronic in nature ] having been extensively bench tested, they had not been tested adequately as part of the car's integrated systems. This meant many problems arose due to unforeseen interactions or complete failure under real world conditions. The extensive development of the new W204 and subsequent models was supposed to combat this and this policy appears to have succeeded to a large extent. It is unfortunate that the recent blue efficiency injector problems may indicate they still have some way to go yet.

i remember after the launch of the e coupe, i saw so many broken down on the road side, this really shocked me and gave a reality check that had Mercedes hit a new low?

i totally agree about isolated tests vs integrated tests..

tut tut to da germans yaaa

 

[WDB124066]

My ideal job; take a new Benz and test drive it around the world - and around again, again and again - in the wilderness, out the back.........

Would love to help Benz get their testing back on track.

Where do you get a job like that??

 

[The Boss]

My ideal job; take a new Benz and test drive it around the world - and around again, again and again - in the wilderness, out the back.........

Would love to help Benz get their testing back on track.

Where do you get a job like that??

that would be a dream.. imagine your job title to be.. Chief AMG test driver

Ah bliss!

 

[WDB124066]

Crikey, I needn't be the Chief, just the Plebe who gets to try and break a Benz without being a thug would be more than adequate.

Might just say a nice little prayer tonight...... Dreams are still free arn't they??

 

[The Boss]

Crikey, I needn't be the Chief, just the Plebe who gets to try and break a Benz without being a thug would be more than adequate.

Might just say a nice little prayer tonight...... Dreams are still free arn't they??

FREE???? ARE YOU MAD!!

New government legislation just released shows a TAX on dreams... to cover up the short fall on Reality!

Good night, i need to rest, been working for 2 days straight now

 

[iscaboy]

MTBF - Mean Time Between Failures.

You buy a new hard disk and you will read that it has an MTBF of 500,000 hours, there are only 8,760 hours in a year so gee, they must have started testing this particular disk in 1953!!

Except that is not how it works.

They test 1,000 disks, and if none of them fail by 500 hours (approx 20 days) then there you have your MTBF of 500k hours.

Welcome to the NEW world of product testing... wanna know why Mercedes-Benz now make rust buckets when they used to be able to make, with far inferior technology, cars that lasted 30 or 40 years, then thank the "efficiencies" and economies available through modern testing methods such as MTBF.

In older times MB would run a fleet of a dozen prototypes 24/7 for a year or two, we're talking 4,000 miles a week, or 200k REAL WORLD miles in a year, then when they go into production again keep back a few of each model and just keep driving them, keep driving them, keep driving them, spaceship miles and keep driving them, and THAT data was absorbed into the next model iteration.

This now is straight from a guy who worked on the W124 design team, and this is essentially what they did, all of course based on the knowledge built of the W123, however, the W124 did have one modern innovation that was not done this way.

That innovation was common with the Porsche of the same period.

That innovation was the plastic skin / paint job, with the result that instead of getting localised rust and perforation, you got whole sheets of rust creeping along, hidden, behind the plastic coating, as soon as you caused a crack or breach in the coating, water got in and then it was just a question of time, like a tree rotting from the inside out.

There have been many, many, many more since, just look at all the ridiculous problems with under bonnet sensors or top of the range prestige cars, it is absolutely inexcusable, but it is excused because the testers can point at their spreadsheets and tell you, with a straight face, that that particular item is good for 75k hours minimum, which at 50 mph is 3.75 million miles, so you must just have a bad one dude, and so must you, and so must you, and so must you, and so must you, and anyway, MB don't make em, Bosch do, so mebbe Bosch changed the flavour since the test regime.

 

[Michael G]

Ooo its another one of Dillan's 'very long and we hate modern MB's thread'
A lot of testing is done by computers, BM recently opened a testing place in Germany, meaning less mules are needed and more tests are done on computer.
It's going to be the same with all manufactures in years to come because it saves money.
Maybe enough testing isn't done by all companies, if it was BMW wouldn't have had having turbo failures and swirl flap failures.
MB did seem to do well with the W204, then Delphi changes the injectors.

 

[Sp!ke]

I know of some manufacturers that still send out prototypes years in advance of production to be seriously used and abused in harsh far flung environments.

 

[vincenz]

This thread is why internet forums should not be taken seriouslly.

Dillan you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to contest all of your points, but manufacturers do run up 200k miles in several test vehicles at various stages of the build.

You can now use finite element analysis packages to simulate alot of testing that was done long term and thats not cost cutting its just advancement.

The w124 had quality issues when it was launched just like most other cars.

 

[lxi]

This thread is why internet forums should not be taken seriouslly.

Dillan you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to contest all of your points, but manufacturers do run up 200k miles in several test vehicles at various stages of the build.

Indeed they do, but over what period of elapsed time? It's all well and good hammering a series of test cars to near death 24/7 with a team of drivers and that will prove or otherwise some components.

However, it does not reflect reality.

Going back to the OP, he makes some very valid observations. I've not had any rust problems but there are many who do. I have had a fair number of failures however on components that should not wear out in 30k miles, but the plain fact is, they did and when the vehicle is out of warranty, that's tough t**ty to you, the owner.

There are some appalling design features on my SL - none that would show up if it was driven 200k miles over 5 months but plenty nonetheless though it has only done a fraction of that in real world conditions.

Finite element analysis would never have shown up many of the failures I have suffered - it is useful, but by no means the be all and end all - just another tool.

and that's why your comment "This thread is why internet forums should not be taken seriouslly." unfortunately was a shot to your own foot made with pinoint precision.

 

[vincenz]

Indeed they do, but over what period of elapsed time? It's all well and good hammering a series of test cars to near death 24/7 with a team of drivers and that will prove or otherwise some components.

However, it does not reflect reality.

Going back to the OP, he makes some very valid observations. I've not had any rust problems but there are many who do. I have had a fair number of failures however on components that should not wear out in 30k miles, but the plain fact is, they did and when the vehicle is out of warranty, that's tough t**ty to you, the owner.

There are some appalling design features on my SL - none that would show up if it was driven 200k miles over 5 months but plenty nonetheless though it has only done a fraction of that in real world conditions.

Finite element analysis would never have shown up many of the failures I have suffered - it is useful, but by no means the be all and end all - just another tool.

and that's why your comment "This thread is why internet forums should not be taken seriouslly." unfortunately was a shot to your own foot made with pinoint precision.

Theres nothing errornous in my post ixi.

I'm not saying FEA or 200k testing will highligh everything but it offers an explaination to the questions originally asked.

 

[The Boss]

This thread is why internet forums should not be taken seriouslly.

Dillan you don't have a clue.

I'm not going to contest all of your points, but manufacturers do run up 200k miles in several test vehicles at various stages of the build.

You can now use finite element analysis packages to simulate alot of testing that was done long term and thats not cost cutting its just advancement.

The w124 had quality issues when it was launched just like most other cars.

Vincenz, fortunately for you i dont have a clue.. or do i ?!!???!! hmmm

Internet Forums should be taken seriously, this thread is a fine example of openly conversing on Topical areas mate.

CAD and CAM are all well and good, however, as was pointed out in a previous thread, real life sceanrio testing is crucial.

W124 quality issues.. ofcourse.. All cars have teething problems, however, the fact that the types of quality issues that are arising seems to shifted.

Todays issues are things that often seem so obviously, we have a sence of shock that they allowed it to happen.

Say 20 or 30 years ago, the indepth testing still had a tolerance that issues could arise and slip through, but because real life testing had observed, accountant-ed and rectified issues where many components come together, the types of problems that arose were things that were more acceptable as it was not something in our mind we would have thought of being obvious..

i dunno.

Scenario tests conduct hundred of thousands of virtual simulations, same with building design and wind analysis, BUT, are we really getting a car that is as described, or as per a previous reply, IS EVERYTHING BASED ON KPI TO JUST GET ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL ON A COST BENEFIT BASIS, NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST COMPONENT, BUT A COMPONENT THAT WILL DO THE JOB..

hmm..

and in my opinion Vincenz, this is an important topic, as media bull often swings minds and opinions, and are we really getting what we are paying for based on the Car Brochure.. is anyone?

 

[vincenz]

Vincenz, fortunately for you i dont have a clue.. or do i ?!!???!! hmmm

Internet Forums should be taken seriously, this thread is a fine example of openly conversing on Topical areas mate.

CAD and CAM are all well and good, however, as was pointed out in a previous thread, real life sceanrio testing is crucial.

W124 quality issues.. ofcourse.. All cars have teething problems, however, the fact that the types of quality issues that are arising seems to shifted.

Todays issues are things that often seem so obviously, we have a sence of shock that they allowed it to happen.

Say 20 or 30 years ago, the indepth testing still had a tolerance that issues could arise and slip through, but because real life testing had observed, accountant-ed and rectified issues where many components come together, the types of problems that arose were things that were more acceptable as it was not something in our mind we would have thought of being obvious..

i dunno.

Scenario tests conduct hundred of thousands of virtual simulations, same with building design and wind analysis, BUT, are we really getting a car that is as described, or as per a previous reply, IS EVERYTHING BASED ON KPI TO JUST GET ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL ON A COST BENEFIT BASIS, NOT NECESSARILY THE BEST COMPONENT, BUT A COMPONENT THAT WILL DO THE JOB..

hmm..

and in my opinion Vincenz, this is an important topic, as media bull often swings minds and opinions, and are we really getting what we are paying for based on the Car Brochure.. is anyone?

Look at the cars 30 years ago, can you honestly say they are better?

 

[Soltan]

I know of some manufacturers that still send out prototypes years in advance of production to be seriously used and abused in harsh far flung environments.

Birmingham is a pretty harsh environment, well at least the bit I live in (ask my insurers) I'd be happy to test a few cars for them, pot holes galore round here and the effect supermarket car parks have on body work and paint will bring tears to your eyes (does to mine every time I look at my bumpers)

 

[The Boss]

Look at the cars 30 years ago, can you honestly say they are better?

YES and NO.

The quality of fit and finish, better TODAY
Integrity, better YESTERYEAR
durability, better YESTERYEAR
safety, better TODAY
simplicity, better YESTERYEAR
longterm ownership, better YESTERYEAR

Today, cars a re designed for the new financial world, 3 year and 4 year plans, 3 year warranties, after this, newer models will all just go to POT