Carneaol Red Lacquer Peeling, Let Battle Commence

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Chrishazle

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 13, 2008
Messages
5,419
Location
Nr Ashford, Kent
Car
2008 S204 C220CDI Elegance Estate Auto, 2008 R171 facelift SLK280 Auto.
I am the second owner of my 2008 S204 C220 bought new from MB Ashford, traded in by first owner and bought from them by me 29/03/2012. I recently noted lacquer peeling on the bonnet, then had the peeling on the roof and rear NS wheel arch pointed out to me. 2 pro bodyshops and Chipsaway all said basically the same thing - full bonnet and roof respray, should not have happened, go talk to MB.

This morning I went to MB Ashford and have to return Monday morning for the car to be examined, starting the process of seeing if MB will do anything under the paintwork warranty. Based on past experience both with my S203 previously and from what I've read on here and t'other side I'm not expecting much from MB!

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The RED paint normally asociated with peeling etc is FIRE OPAL 590 Haven't heard much about CARNEOL RED 544 being a problem but entirely possible. Mercedes may offer a free full body respray if you are lucky - but if the car has already had remedial paint work done they usually won't touch it.They use a paint depth gauge device to check if the paint is original
 
I am not aware of any paintwork having been done on the car - no mention frpm the salesman or in the history invoices I got when I bought it, and certainly none in my ownership. Interestingly though, one of the bodyshops I tried reckons the bonnet has been painted, he says he can see micro bubbling, damned if I can!!

Fortunately I'm dealing with the main dealer that supplied the car new to the first owner, took it from him as PX and sold it to me, I have the first owner's name and address on the V5 if I need to contact him. However, with the car almost 11 years old and not having been near a main dealer for the past 6 years, I'm not expecting much if anything from MB!!

I like the polite "looks unsightly" description - theoretically this is SWMBO's car, I can't post what she called it without falling foul of the Scunthorpe filter!
 
Well, stage 1 complete, MB Ashford "paint expert" has taken her photos and paint thickness measurements, which show the car has NOT had previous paint. However, initial comment from the STM (not the paint lady) is that the bonnet damage is from stone chips, external influence, and will probably not be covered. no comment about the roof. However, his comments are not gospel so I'll wait and see what comes back after they submit the claim to MB.
 
My Mrs had an SLK in that colour and it also peeled in the way that yours has, I just assumed that MB wouldn't be interested and left it until it was traded in. Red paint is known for issues.
 
Yours is the first comment I've seen about a Carneaol Red problem - we all know about Fire Opal Red, I also found a couple of posts about a red slightly lighter than Carneol. What vintage was your wife's SLK and at what car age did you start noticing the problem?
 
Yours is the first comment I've seen about a Carneaol Red problem - we all know about Fire Opal Red, I also found a couple of posts about a red slightly lighter than Carneol. What vintage was your wife's SLK and at what car age did you start noticing the problem?
It was a late 2001 or early 2002 car, I don't know what the colour was called but it looked the same as yours.

I guess that it was 10 years old when I first noticed the peeling lacquer, there was one on the roof which did look like it rusted from within and there were a couple on the front wings.

In hindsight the early 90s was a time when MB were not covering themselves in glory.
 
My S203 was a 2001, again full MB service history, me as second owner, paint bubbling along the bottom of both offside doors in 2008, MB via MB Ashford offered 10% towards the £800 (?+VAT) cost of the repair at their MB approved Maidstone body shop. Didn't get done, PX'd the car in 2012 at MB Ashford for the S204!
 
Not early 90s, early 2000s!
 
Well, just had a phone call from the "STM" lackey at MB Ashford (not the lady who actually did the inspection, just the man who took the car round the back to her) saying "Repair daclined due to age and mileage of the vehicle". I have asked for that by email, plus a copy of her report and the reply from MBCS, he said he did not have the report, would ask her to forward it but did not know if she would - so I told him if necessary I'd ask the Dealer Principle for it!

So, no surprises so far. Let battle continue, especially as I have comment from 2 pro bodyshops and a very experienced Chipsaway man (used to run 14 bodyshops before switching to Chipsaway 16 years ago) saying "this should not have happened, talk to MB!".
 
Well, I contacted MB CS with the full story and photos, re-sent the email a week later as there had been no response, and now a further 6 days later they've responded. As expected, no joy :

Dear Mr Hazle

Mercedes-Benz Model: C-Class C 220 CDI
Chassis No: WDD2042082F200232
Registration: KT08XPO


Thank you for contacting Mercedes-Benz Customer Service. I was sorry to hear about the issues you have been experiencing with the paintwork on your C220. I appreciate that you purchased your car based upon the reputation of Mercedes-Benz and I am sorry that your expectations have not been met in this instance. I can confirm that Mercedes-Benz produces its cars and parts to a high quality but due to the high number of variables involved in the driving of the car I am unable to provide a guaranteed timeline on the life of any aspect of the car, including the paintwork.

Please note that there is no obligation on Mercedes-Benz to provide any financial assistance once the Manufacturer's Warranty has expired. However, we are committed to offering an exceptional level of after sales care and the best possible customer experience. Therefore, in certain circumstances we may consider offering a goodwill contribution towards any repair costs. Goodwill is applied at the company's sole discretion and despite our best intentions we cannot offer an unlimited level of goodwill to our entire customer base. This is therefore regulated in accordance with our established goodwill criteria. Our Goodwill Department will take into consideration, whether the car has been maintained by a Mercedes-Benz Retailer, the characteristics of the car, such as the age and mileage, together with the nature of the damage in question.

Having taken into consideration all of these factors, no contribution has been awarded towards the repair costs. I am sorry for any disappointment this causes but wish to assure you that this matter has been fully reviewed.

If you are unhappy with this final decision or feel this matter is unresolved, you can seek advice with a CTSI Certified Alternative Dispute Resolution provider. We are prepared to engage with The Motor Ombudsman to resolve your dispute. Further details can be found at www.themotorombudsman.org, or alternatively their telephone number is 0345 241 3008 selecting option 1.

Should you have any further requirements please do not hesitate to contact us.

Yours sincerely

Gavin Beswick
Customer Service UK

Only just received this, so have not yet thought about taking it further or biting the bullet and booking in for £600 of repair.
 
For completeness, below is what I sent to MB CS, plus the initial response from MB Ashford and my reply to them.:

Dear Sirs,

I am forwarding this to you as I am unhappy with the response from Lookers Mercedes Benz Ashford Kent.

Vehicle : S204 C220Cdi Estate, paint code C544 Carneol Red Metallic (I understand the C refers to ceramicoat paint, which has known issues)
VIN : WDD2042082F200232 Registration KT 08 XPO
Date of first registration 17.06.2008 – I suspect by MB Ashford.
Bought from MB Ashford 20.03.2009 by a gentleman from Smarden, Ashford Kent (I have his name and address on the V5). Serviced by MB Ashford.
Taken as trade-in by MB Ashford 1st Q 2012 and purchased by me MB Used Approved from them 29.03.2012, mileage 60257, full B service before delivery to me.
Serviced by MB Ashford just before end of 12 month Tier 1 warranty, subsequently annually by local well respected independent specialist garage in accordance with MB ESS. Mechanically the car is perfect. Recent service included full ATF/filter change and brake fluid change as well as routine items.
Current mileage 102500.

Shortly after buying the car, as I was at that time keen to make sure the bodywork was protected, I washed, decontaminated and clayed the entire car, then carefully used a DA polisher and 3M Perfect-it polish followed by Autoglym HD wax over the entire car, and have subsequently kept the car clean and waxed – it’s a car we love and intend to keep for many more years.

As with most cars, there are some stone chips on the bonnet, but a few months ago I noticed the beginning of clearcoat lifting on the bonnet, then on the front nearside of the roof. I have taken the car to 2 reputable recommended local bodyshops and had a visit from the local Chipsaway man – all experienced people who said the same things, namely “that should not have happened, it’s a manufacturing fault fairly often seen on MB cars, take it to MB”.

On Monday 18th March I took the car to MB Ashford for a paint inspection, yesterday I received a phone call from Ryan White saying only that the repair had been declined due to the age and mileage of the vehicle. I asked for that and further details by email, and his response is below. I replied last evening (also below) but have not yet received any response.

Searching online, there are a lot of reports of clearcoat/lacquer peeling problems on red MB cars, both on UK and USA forums. While the majority of the problems refer to Fire Opal/Mars Red (not just blistering, but also lacquer peel) there are reports of the same problem on other red colours, including C class cars from 2008.

Although the bodyshops both told me that the lifting areas started with small stone chips, there are many of these particularly on the bonnet/nose where, although chipped, the clearcoat has not lifted. It appears that the adhesion of the clearcoat to the base colour was inadequate where the clearcoat is lifting, and to me that is a manufacturing defect rather than an “external influence”.

To rectify the problem areas will require, according to both bodyshops and Chipsaway, a complete bonnet and roof respray plus a small repair to the rear NS wheelarch front. I have not taken the car to Ashford’s MB Approved bodyshop as that is somewhere in Maidstone about 30 miles away, but I know from the 2 bodyshops that have seen the car that the repair will cost, from them, £600-1100, and would expect the MB Approved bodyshop to be the same or more.

I look forward to your comments on the above and your proposal for rectifying this manufacturing defect.

Yours sincerely,

Chris Hazle

From: Chris Hazle
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 9:51 PM
To: Ryan White
Subject: Re: PAINTWORK INSPECTION KT08XPO

I suggest you read page 53-54 of the linked document and resubmit this request to MBCS, as it is clear that the fault is related to manufacturing defect and has nothing to do with the age or mileage of the vehicle.

https://www.spieshecker.com/content.../painter-tips/TSG-Painter-Tips_ENG-INT_ES.pdf

I also think that this claim should be uplifted to higher level management both in MB Ashford and in MBCS. I have looked after the bodywork of my car rather well, and it is obvious that such lifting of the clear coat should not have happened unless there was a manufacturing problem - as 2 professional body shops and 1 very professional repairer has said to me.

Regards

Chris Hazle

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 15:55, Ryan White <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Mr Hazle

With reference to the recent inspection carried out on your vehicle with regards to lacquer peeling on the Roof, Bonnet and N/S/R Wheel Arch.

The paint readings taken at time of inspection were 110 on the roof,119 on the bonnet and 112 N/S/R wheel arch.

We have submitted a request to the manufacturer, but regretfully the repair has been declined on this occasion.

We regret that our answer can not be more favourable in this instance

Ryan White

Service Team Leader

Lookers Mercedes-Benz
 
Strange how many red coloured MB's are having these paint / clearcoat problems......I remember well that in the past, factory painted red coloured cars ( non-metallic finish) would over time fade, leaving a white film on the surface? ( It could be removed easily...a machine compound and polish would restore it to it's original factory finish gloss ) It was caused by sunlight, and now I am wondering if the clear coat is peeling, because the bond between the red base coat and clear coat is deteriorating due to the effects of the sunlight??? Just a thought.
 
It is apparently due to the bond between the base coat and the clearcoat being inadequate, but MB are so far not accepting this as a manufacturing defect! On t'other side I was given a link to the "hintys and tips" document of a long established automotive paint and spray equipment company that states and shows the problem quite clearly, I included the link in my email to MBCS but will attach the document in my next email to them.

I know about the problem with old red paints, the Porsche Guards Red from the 1980's is often referred to as Guards Pink, my first 944 had a front wing that colour!
 
It is apparently due to the bond between the base coat and the clearcoat being inadequate, but MB are so far not accepting this as a manufacturing defect! On t'other side I was given a link to the "hintys and tips" document of a long established automotive paint and spray equipment company that states and shows the problem quite clearly, I included the link in my email to MBCS but will attach the document in my next email to them.

I know about the problem with old red paints, the Porsche Guards Red from the 1980's is often referred to as Guards Pink, my first 944 had a front wing that colour!

In bodywork repair's, the base ( colour) coat, either solid or metallic, would just be thinned and sprayed onto the primed surface. These base coats were a 2pack, and chemically hardened. The hardener was mixed with the clearcoat, and sprayed onto the basecoat, and that was what both hardened the basecoat, and also bonded the clearcoat to the basecoat. I'm not sure how it was done during production in the factory though, but something similar, I think. I once came across several cases where the paint was peeling off, just like the clearcoat in the OP's pics...turned out that during production, the primer on the bare metal shell's, was too hard, had been over-baked, so the top coat's were unable to get a grip on it. So it peeled off.
 
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If I were MB, I’d be worried about authorising £1000+ worth of work on that car, in case in six months or whatever another panel started peeling (let’s be realistic, if it’s the factory paint that’s peeling, and has shown this issue on three different panels/areas, the question is where next?)

I do sympathise with you Chris but to put it bluntly I don’t think MB are likely to help, they see the car as pretty old/high mileage (over ten years and 100k miles), and any goodwill that they may have offered usually comes from having full dealer history or perhaps being the original owner etc.

It’s the same as we used to have on here with the corrosion claims a few years back. A few were lucky and had whole panels replaced and and a few people got fobbed off, but after a while the cars were old anyway and I guess most stopped asking.

I’d be annoyed too but I think I’d just bite the bullet and either get the car repaired or trade it in if you’re not confident the rest of the paint will stand the test of time?

Good luck though, I guess you’ve nothing to lose by asking again :)
 

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