Carry (copy of) your insurance with you or ...

league67

Active Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
230
Location
London
Car
E 270CDI aka Gunther
LONG RANT WARNING *

Your vehicle might get impounded by police.

If your vehicle insurance is not on police national computer police has the right to (and oh do they excercise it) to impound your vehicle. Even if that same computer says that you don't have a road tax, and you quite obviously have road tax on the windscreen police will not ring your insurance to confirm details.
Questioned how would you get 20 days old tax disc without valid insurance, the reply is equaly amusing ; ' Well, you could of had that at the time of issuing tax disc but you may cancelled it afterwards'. Benefit of doubt ? If 'computer is wrong' on tax disc can it be wrong on insurance ? 'No, database of road tax may be OUT OF DATE, but insurance DB is ALWAYS correct' !!!
I suppose its much easier to tow the vehicle, get you producer and get you to waste your time getting all the documents to prove that you actually do have it all. Oh and don't even think of showing without having both parts of your license, because 'without other part we can't check if your license is valid'. Really ??? DVLA database hello ??? Have a distinct feeling that police do have access to it. At the same time your car is impounded and you are running up the bills for the cabs, not being at work and storage fees, which you still need to pay 'even , yes, you do have all the documents, but can claim it later'. The claim part only applies to vehicle depot charges, if you want anyhthing else , cab bla bla ... small claim court.

Innocent until proven guilty ???

Only if you are speeding (and of course you happen to be PC)..

Rant over
 

jaymanek

Authorised Forum Sponsor
SUPPORTER
Joined
Nov 29, 2002
Messages
16,415
Location
Nuneaton Warwickshire
Car
Lots of Mercedes!
well in that case they would have to impound all of mine as they are covered by trade insurance and they never have a record of the cars i own...
 
OP
OP
league67

league67

Active Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
230
Location
London
Car
E 270CDI aka Gunther
.....

swisstoni - yes. will hopefully get it back tommorow.

jaymanek; the guy in front of me at the police station, was a trader, I don't understand how it works but apparently his insurance should cover ANY car. Again not on the computer and Yes again at the pound whatever the darn place is called ... (nice chap btw).
 

Swiss Toni

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
1,593
Car
Pedestrian
Serious Organised Crime & Police Act

Part 5, S152...

152 Power to seize etc. vehicles driven without licence or insurance

After section 165 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52) insert-

"165A Power to seize vehicles driven without licence or insurance

(1) Subsection (5) applies if any of the following conditions is satisfied.

(2) The first condition is that-

(a) a constable in uniform requires, under section 164, a person to produce his licence and its counterpart for examination,
(b) the person fails to produce them, and
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is or was being driven by the person in contravention of section 87(1).
(3) The second condition is that-

(a) a constable in uniform requires, under section 165, a person to produce evidence that a motor vehicle is not or was not being driven in contravention of section 143,
(b) the person fails to produce such evidence, and
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the vehicle is or was being so driven.




It is part C of each if these powers that needs to be considered - what was it that gave the Officer reasonable grounds to believe (not just suspect - which is what "no entry on the Insurance Database" would provide).

Without knowing the full grounds of the stop or what you said to the Officer, or what they know about you, difficult to speculate (and that is all it would be) - they don't actually have to tell you why they believe you don't have insurance, but they do HAVE to believe it. (Which would be the basis of your Civil Claim against the force and or letter to their legal dept...).

If I can be of assistance. Let me know.

I don't offer an opinion, just state that they have to believe you were uninsured, not just suspect it.

:)
 
OP
OP
league67

league67

Active Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
230
Location
London
Car
E 270CDI aka Gunther
Thanks Toni...

You are of course right , and I've just got the call from someone at the station. Officers at the scene, both of them very professional, said that ONLY reason that they are taking the vehicle is that it shows on PNC PCN or something like that, that the VEHICLE was not insured. Visit to station where I produced ALL the required documents resulted in ' oh you know computers sometimes are NOT updated and on those grounds they HAD right to take it away'.

All good , and all fine. But , if there is a tax disc which was literrary taken 20 days or so ago, probability is that I do have insurance for the car. Asking me to produce copy of it next day would allow them to make sure that I do have it.

I can't stress enough that I fully support taking all uninsured vehicles of the road, but if you have very recent tax disc, if you give to police the name and phone number of the insurance company, you'd expect that they use it.

Total waste of everyone's time. And inconvenience and loss of money to me. And no I have no intention of going to SCC, just can't be asked. Just want car back and for police to pay for storage/pound fee's.

Thanks very much for very constructive and insightfull (spelling?) info.

Regards
 

Swiss Toni

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
1,593
Car
Pedestrian
Actually, it will not show as "uninsured", it will simply not show as "insured" - as, no doubt, will all the cars on the Police fleet including the Chief Constable / Commisioners car.

Not showing as "insured" (thats not the same as "uninsured", remember) would be grounds to suspect it is uninsured, not grounds to believe it is unisured.

Again, I don't know what was said at the scene, so won't offer an opinion on your circs (you might be well known for driving without insurance, for example) but it would appear the Officers exercising this power either did it without appropriate discretion or just without proper regard to what the law actually says. Either of which would be unlawful.

Tax disc is not relevant - it is common to get a fake insurance cert, default on payment, get someone else to obtain cover etc.

PM me if you have any difficulty with the fees.

Perhaps Plodd might offer an opinion?

PS were they Traffic Cops? or Local Bobbies?
 

Flash

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Messages
4,925
Location
UK
Car
Mercs
If going to carry a copy of your insurance certificate then only produce it IF absolutely necessary (i.e. prevent your vehicle from being impounded) and IF have the option then go for the producer.

From experience IF the Officer (s) "has it in for you" and you produce the relevant documentation on the spot then they will look for other things to nail you for...!
 

GRAV888

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 5, 2003
Messages
6,324
Location
Rochester and Lancashire
Car
2017 CLA 180 AMG in Black (mine) 2018 GLA 200 SE in Black (wifes)
jaymanek said:
well in that case they would have to impound all of mine as they are covered by trade insurance and they never have a record of the cars i own...

I think you are meant to tell them on the MIIC site.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
league67

league67

Active Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
230
Location
London
Car
E 270CDI aka Gunther
Well what do you know there is hope after all

Just got a call from an Inspector X (at 9pm no less) who basically, after looking at all records, offered his appologies, and agreed that police / pound people will pay for the release of the vehicle. Also advised that IF I do want to pursue compensation for the inconvenience / expencess I need to talk to a lawyer. No time or desire to do so. So I'll just get the car , forget that anything happened and get on with things.

SwissToni, thanks again for insight and offer of help, hope I'll be able to return favour some time.

Regards

PS (copy of insurance certificate superglued to my wallet)

PPS thanks for everyone who chimed in with usefull comments
 

Swiss Toni

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 1, 2004
Messages
1,593
Car
Pedestrian
Finally (and sorry for this but...)

Carrying a copy of your insurance is little use.

Unfortunately you are thinking like an honest person...

A Copy of the insurance certificate will invariably look like an altered certificate and has little value (the Eagle Star credit card sized certs are good though).

Just looks like you got the butt end of some over-zealous use of a pretty decent bit of legislation (which is a shame).

For what it is worth, this legislation is pulling in loads of the right sorts of drivers and taking plenty of cars off the road (for all the right reasons).

:rolleyes:
 

dagd

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
164
Location
Surrey
Car
SLK230
Swiss Toni said:
Finally (and sorry for this but...)

Carrying a copy of your insurance is little use.

Unfortunately you are thinking like an honest person...

A Copy of the insurance certificate will invariably look like an altered certificate and has little value (the Eagle Star credit card sized certs are good though).

Just looks like you got the butt end of some over-zealous use of a pretty decent bit of legislation (which is a shame).

For what it is worth, this legislation is pulling in loads of the right sorts of drivers and taking plenty of cars off the road (for all the right reasons).

:rolleyes:

I agree, copies of insurance can be faked and other than acting as a reference; are of no value. With regard to the Tax disc indicating valid insurance, I recently taxed my sons car on his behalf with only three days left on the existing insurance.
 

Plodd

Active Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Messages
564
Location
Manchester
Car
2007 VW Golf R32
I used this wonderful new power today twice.

First driver told me it was his car which was confirmed by PNC check showing he had owned it since Feb. I told him it wasn't showing any insurance on the database. No problem says he, i've got insurance on my other car which covers me to drive other cars. Oh no it doesn't I tell him it only covers cars not owned by him. He thinks for a while and then informs me that the car actually doesn't belong to him anymore as he sold it to his mother yesterday.
Good try but no cigar, car goes on recovery truck.

Second driver was a really nice Iraqi (sp?). He was driving a slightly blinged up Astra. He produced an insurance certificate for a VW Golf. His English was really good and he told me a tale about ringing his insurance to swap cover to the Astra from the Golf but they refused. Something didn't sound too right about this so I called the insurance company myself. Not a problem as our new radios can be used as mobile phones. Insurance co confirmed the gent did ring them a few days ago but as the Astra was now fitted with a 1.6ltr engine and not the 1.2 with which it left the factory they refused to cover it as it had been 'modified'. This car also went on the truck.

A friend of mine has a trader policy and the advice I gave him was to make up a card with details of his insurance company, certificate number, valid dates and a contact number with company and broker. He has done this and laminated it and carries it in his wallet. By no means a legal requirement but it could avoid a situation like the one above.
 

petef

Active Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
521
Location
chester
Car
Mercedes 200C
I totally agree with police having powers to tow away uninsured and untaxed cars. However it seems wherever you go at the moment there are roadside checks / mobile cameras. Its a pity the police arnt as tooled up on a saturday night in city centres. I am sure like very other town hall department they are measured on performance / performance indicators etc. The police are slowly isolating themselves from the majority of people who support them.
I for one have no trust in the legal system or the police. Of course we need them but in terms of safety of the general public I do not feel protected. Unfortunately when the general public feel this way, decent usually law abiding citizens resort to alternative means to protect their family / loved ones......Its 5 am and i woke to a noise outside....did i think of calling the police...no I didnt.
Until this governmant is thrown out then we are on a hiding to nothing.
 

nick mercedes

MB Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
7,106
Location
far far away
Car
Ford Expedition
petef said:
I totally agree with police having powers to tow away uninsured and untaxed cars. However it seems wherever you go at the moment there are roadside checks / mobile cameras. Its a pity the police arnt as tooled up on a saturday night in city centres. I am sure like very other town hall department they are measured on performance / performance indicators etc. The police are slowly isolating themselves from the majority of people who support them.
I for one have no trust in the legal system or the police. Of course we need them but in terms of safety of the general public I do not feel protected. Unfortunately when the general public feel this way, decent usually law abiding citizens resort to alternative means to protect their family / loved ones......Its 5 am and i woke to a noise outside....did i think of calling the police...no I didnt.
Until this governmant is thrown out then we are on a hiding to nothing.

The problem I have is that the power of courts seems to being given to individual police officers to seize peoples belongings (cars) and it's up to the car owner to prove that no law has been broken rather than the other way around....
 

glojo

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
14,652
Location
Torquay
Car
S211 Sprinter 213CDI, & the new T-class
We all speak through the experiences we have had. I have very recently posted a thread where my son was involved in a road traffic accident. Neither he, nor the other driver had any insurance documentation, the Police arrived at the scene and within minutes they supplied policy numbers etc. The amazing thing was my son had only taken out the insurance the previous day!!! Yet this was on the Police National Computer with 24 hours??

I fully accept there are exceptions and clearly this thread appears to be one of them, but a few very valid points have been highlighted which in fairness to both sides we should acknowledge. One side suggests NOT being co-operative and trying to go for producing documentation at a later date. The other side points out quite clearly from first hand experience why cars should be impounded, highlighting how the drivers were merely 'trying it on' We all (including me) criticise the Police but I note that none of us come up with an alternative. If Plodd had gone the way suggested by the other contributor and handed out 'a producer' then hooray the first persons advice worked, the drivers both got away with driving a motor vehicle without insurance. Surely in life it is always easier to be both polite, helpful and co-operative?

I cannot condone the alleged actions of this officer, but there is ALWAYS two sides to every story. I fully accept an Inspector apologised, but I would simply like to hear the other side to this incident. Why were you stopped and why did the officer want to see the insurance?

In Devon and Cornwall the Police are experimenting with very small video camera's that an officer wears and this both video's and records ALL conversations. I just wish this equipment was mandatory, it would certainly have helped in this case. The owner has been put to considerable expense and inconvienance. The recorded incident would go a long way to getting compensation, and also to re-educate the officer (if necessary)

Glad it has all now been resolved,
John
 

Dieselman

Banned
Joined
Jul 13, 2003
Messages
34,206
Car
Peugeot 403 Convertible
League67
I can understand your frustration but as a (generally) law abiding citizen who believes that everyone driving a car needs to be insured, I don't have any issue with the Police checking on whether I have insured my car.

I am surprised that your car was towed, however I would rather put up with this inconvenience on the basis that if/when someone crashes into my car or even worse a person, then they are insured as the uninisured drivers will be off the road.

Although it sounds like the Police were a bit over zealous they were only doing their job which is to police the law. No I am not a Policeman.

Take the offer of costs and move on.

Outside my office there is regularly a Police car with an ANPR camera on a busy one way road. Odly enough it never seems to be stationary for long. What does that say?
 

Shude

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 1, 2002
Messages
13,882
Location
Cheshire
Car
CLK55 AMG
Dieselman said:
Outside my office there is regularly a Police car with an ANPR camera on a busy one way road. Odly enough it never seems to be stationary for long. What does that say?
It's because something like 1 in 20 cars are not insured!

I just searched BBC news for the published stats and found this story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3549974.stm

According to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) the average fine for driving without insurance is £150, despite the fact that the maximum fine for the offence is £5,000.
Well I think I've just found a way to knock about £1000 per year off my motoring costs.
 

glojo

Hardcore MB Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
14,652
Location
Torquay
Car
S211 Sprinter 213CDI, & the new T-class
Shude said:
I just searched BBC news for the published stats and found this story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3549974.stm
:) :) What's with BMW drivers!! :) The car that rammed my son's vehicle was a 530i.

We should surely show compassion for this unfortunate car drivers that cannot afford insurance. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Strange how they can afford a BMW, but not the insurance??

Does it matter if they are fined £120 or £1200. If they don't pay the fine then the amount is surely irrelevant??

Why should we take out insurance??

Uninsured cars should be seized and crushed at the road side. Clearly if the driver insists he is insured then as Plodd has pointed out the Police have mobile telephones, if hte driver is lying then prosecute them for attempting to pervert the course of justice. I am referring to the gentleman that tried it on with the car that had the larger engine in it.

John
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom