Cars Too Complex For Their Own Good?

[mattc]

How about "can i have my money back seeing as you nor the factory do not know the cause of the problem"?

Personally I would be spitting feathers if they had taken the sort of money they have off your daughter -especially without resolving the issues

One problem seems to me to be that manufacturers are fitting goodies (which we all want because they are lovely when they are working) -fitting them before they have the diagnostic equipment to find the multitude of faults that can occur as all the systems inter-react. Of course my daughter wants ABS brakes a speedo an odometer and a trip meter. And more. But the fact that their diagnostic equipment cannot tell them whether the fault is a failing battery, or ABS sensors or uncle Tom Cobley and all makes finding and repairing this fault a complete nightmare. And what are you supposed to say to a Service Manager who says " I'm sorry. I really have no idea what is causing the problems. And nor do the people at the factory"

 

[television]

Any idea what is causing my daughter's car symptoms, Malcolm? Or anyone? Help!

Too hard really to say, but for a start there is not "a" ABS sensor, the car has several and 4 minimum. the fact that the fault comes as soon as you move the car shows that it should be a wheel or speed signal that goes missing, I would have thought that even on a mini this should come up on the diagnostic testing

 

[hawk20]

Without wishing to be rude to anyone, generally the type of people who complain that cars are too complicated now are those who formerly used to know how they work but hasn't kept their knowledge up to date.
Technology will leave you behind unless you keep up to date with it.

I love the idea that somehow my daughter, while keeping up to date in her own very demanding job, has somehow got to keep up to date enough in electronic engineering to be able to explain to BMW and the Service Manager at the Mini dealer, what is wrong with this car when they -with all their up to date knowledge are completely non-plussed.

 

[hawk20]

Too hard really to say, but for a start there is not "a" ABS sensor, the car has several and 4 minimum. the fact that the fault comes as soon as you move the car shows that it should be a wheel or speed signal that goes missing, I would have thought that even on a mini this should come up on the diagnostic testing

Yes. I think it is because the fault comes when the car moves that they thought the ABS sensing system was the possible problem. Apparently it feeds information to other parts which do not function properly without that information. But I'm only getting what is relayed by my upset daughter who is definitely not technical.

 

[mattc]

Hawk20

People are not suggesting your daughter should be up-to-date. Rather, the dealerships should understand the systems they are representing.

I guess many people on here are surprised that they charge money and then admit they don't really know the fault .

I also think people understand that your daughter is rather 'exposed' in all this. She takes it to the experts, they say its' fixed, problems re-appear. In this catalgoue of failures do you think it is time to write to them officially asking for money back-they clearly admit they cannot fix the problem. They have changed parts that probably did not need changing and still have not found the source of the issue.

 

[hawk20]

Hawk20

People are not suggesting your daughter should be up-to-date. Rather, the dealerships should understand the systems they are representing.

I guess many people on here are surprised that they charge money and then admit they don't really know the fault .

I also think people understand that your daughter is rather 'exposed' in all this. She takes it to the experts, they say its' fixed, problems re-appear. In this catalgoue of failures do you think it is time to write to them officially asking for money back-they clearly admit they cannot fix the problem. They have changed parts that probably did not need changing and still have not found the source of the issue.

Yes, she is somewhat exposed. But I think we all are in some areas of life, whether it is cars, or health or whatever. Can't keep up with everything.

Oddly she has just had a call saying with further advice from factory car is now fixed and ready. Well they said that last time. But let's hope. I'll post the final bill!

 

[mattc]

How about asking for an explanation in writing detailing the work that was necessary to fix the problem (not necessarily that which they undertook I bet!). Wait for the explanation and see how "woolly" it is. Might be useful if a 'fight' ensues over costs???

 

[DansSlk]

The Group Tester should be able to pick up on any wheel speed sensor problems and its either those or the control module they connect to if everything else is good.

Does the fault code for the speed sensor on wheel whatever still show?

I think you should use another dealer or insist this one starts to shotgun parts FOC until the culprit is found.

 

[fredfloggle]

I think that the problem is more "Why do not garages employ some good electronic engineers"

Electronics and engineering is miles apart, you either love electronics or you hate them. Nothing moves, nothing happens even if you stare at the things all day long nothing will happen.

With a glut of TV engineers now redundant some of these guys could have been trained up for car work, its all old hat to us, apart from that if your basic understanding is sound, just looking at the application or diagram one soon knows how it works.

I would have thought that a chain with several outlets could have employed one guy who knows what he is doing, to visit different workshops on different day to sort the piggy jobs out.

One outlet use the customer and me on a forum to sort out his Distronic when it malfunctioned as the poor guy did not have a clue, we did it though.

I remember the words of an MB engineer, " I did not want to be an electronic engineer,but I have no choice" and this is one trade where you grasp whats going on or you do not understand a thing.

Ask someone what a resistor does, and you will not get the right answer, the same goes for a capacitor, try it on here if you like, just say what you think they do and the reason.

Why don't the buggers employ some engineers full stop ?

As I mentioned I got to the point of nearly shutting a merc technicians head in the door because he couldn' read the faultfinding guide that his lovely STAR machine gave him - it could not have been easier - the ignitor cct was giving a laughably high (OK improbably high , but laughable sounds better) resistance - test was easy , lift the carpet unplug the cable - insert a 2.3 ohm resistor into the cable back to the controller and see if the fault could be cleared - I won't bore you with the testing the other way to the airbag suffice to say a 12 year old should have been able to do it - I ended up paying for an airbag that I didn't need because a connexion had festered a bit and needed a clean up - nothing more than that.
Would this guy listen when I tried to help? No , I would have ended up with a new engine if I had left him to his own devices- yet it was all on a plate for him.

 

[del320]

Without wishing to be rude to anyone, generally the type of people who complain that cars are too complicated now are those who formerly used to know how they work but hasn't kept their knowledge up to date.

If you were a designer of electro-mechanical systems the concepts and functions of a modern car would be easily understood I'm sure.

I've always known how a four stroke engine works, and understand the principles behind a supercharger. However, fixing a 1920s Bentley Blower is as beyond me as fixing my CLK Kompressor.

Technology will leave you behind unless you keep up to date with it.

Oh C'mon!

35 years ago, before you were born, a manual, a few spanners and a set of feeler guages and you could do virtually anything in the way of maintenance. And if you didn't know, you soon learned - with little risk of damage to yourself or the car.

After fitting a breakerless ignition (Piranah?) I found out how to use a timing light. Then I had to strip the carb... and so it went on. Replacing brakes and the exhaust were easy routine jobs.

Nowadays, you risk jiggering the car by just disconnecting the battery. I used to work on cars, mostly 'cos I was poor, but also because I enjoyed it and I had some mechanical ability.

Nowadays, it would be impossible for a keen amateur to 'keep up to date', never mind the need for specialist gear. Remember, unlike Fred and Malcolm, I have zero electronic knowledge.

But would I want to go back to those halcyon days?

Ehh...No!

 

[television]

Why don't the buggers employ some engineers full stop ?

As I mentioned I got to the point of nearly shutting a merc technicians head in the door because he couldn' read the faultfinding guide that his lovely STAR machine gave him - it could not have been easier - the ignitor cct was giving a laughably high (OK improbably high , but laughable sounds better) resistance - test was easy , lift the carpet unplug the cable - insert a 2.3 ohm resistor into the cable back to the controller and see if the fault could be cleared - I won't bore you with the testing the other way to the airbag suffice to say a 12 year old should have been able to do it - I ended up paying for an airbag that I didn't need because a connexion had festered a bit and needed a clean up - nothing more than that.
Would this guy listen when I tried to help? No , I would have ended up with a new engine if I had left him to his own devices- yet it was all on a plate for him.

Two years back 90% of the TV engineers went bust or they could not earn a living, many of these guys had been poor for a long time as the work dried up, and they had been fixing their own cars as there was no money to pay to have it done, so there were some good people out there and on the market but motor dealers or manufactures did not pick up on it. as I have said many times you cant teach electronics if the person is not that way inclined.

As with your SRS fault how many know anything about dummy loads other than you end up with a dummy loading your car with bits that you do not need

 

[Natalie]

If you employ monkeys.....

Wouldn't the world be a great place if we could all do everything thrown at us? Repair the central heating, rewire a house, reprogramme our computers, solve the ever increasing electronic problems with cars, cook, iron - and so the list could go on!

Then where would the need be for the "experts" in their field I ask? Hence, we take our beloved vehicles (those of us like me who know only how to wash and polish our cars!) to the specialists. I am far too busy in day to day life to do a complete course in mechanical engineering and learn about the onboard computers in cars!

I'll stick to what I do best in life I think and hopefully not come across the mob that your daughter had the pleasure of meeting! Personally, I would be creating merry hell with them, asking for a detailed analysis of the problems (many caused by them by the sound of it!) and asking for a huge amount of recompense.

Good luck!

 

[hawk20]

Well some good news at last. Thanks for the many bits of advice and my daughter did go in and throw a wobbler. Result: they have greatly reduced the bill and got the car working again. It turns out that it wasn't just the ABS sensors, and not just the need for a new battery, but it was also the control unit for the ABS system. So she was told. Now all been changed and all is well. Total bill £900. That is the £150 for the battery and looking around to see faults, and £750 for all the work on the ABS system. A lot better than the original quote. But still hardly good on a car that has only done a bit over 30k miles.

 

[marcos]

We were talking about a very similair subject on Saturday.
My friend and I noticed his neighbour with the bonnet up on his RR Sport, we both laughed and commented on RR reliability.
It was then that my freind pointed out that 20yrs ago half the cars in the street would have had their bonnets up with people tinkering with their engines etc and no one would have assumed that any of the cars had broken down, they were just being tinkered with because people knew how to.
About half an hour later a pick up lorry arrived and the RR was towed away.

How times have changed

 

[Bobby Dazzler]

I am far too busy in day to day life to do a complete course in mechanical engineering and learn about the onboard computers in cars!

Sadly even that would be insufficient, as it's lots of experience, a good measure of confidence and a little bit of basic theory that make a good mechanic.

Having studied automotive engineering myself I can vouch for that personally. Lots of theory, little experience, and not much condidence means I don't have a hope in hell of rolling up the sleeves and actually fixing a car, despite having a piece of paper saying I studied 'em!!

However, experience enables me to offer a suggestion to another when I've suffered the same problem myself. Still wouldn't be able to fix it for them though, as somebody else fixed it for me in the first place!!

 

[big x]

There's nothing particularly complex about the Mini. Even someone with technophobia can arm themselves with a Haynes manual and the Mini EPC

http://minifans.info/

If you have a problem it's almost certain someone else on the owners forum will have also had it too and can provide some answers.
On the other hand something like the Kia C'eed with 8 year warranty is the way to go for someone with no interest in cars IMO.

adam

 

[big x]

Well some good news at last. Thanks for the many bits of advice and my daughter did go in and throw a wobbler. Result: they have greatly reduced the bill and got the car working again. It turns out that it wasn't just the ABS sensors, and not just the need for a new battery, but it was also the control unit for the ABS system. So she was told. Now all been changed and all is well. Total bill £900. That is the £150 for the battery and looking around to see faults, and £750 for all the work on the ABS system. A lot better than the original quote. But still hardly good on a car that has only done a bit over 30k miles.

ABS problems are normally just one of the sensors @ circa £50.
Part no 2. A simple hall effect sensor that always flag up a fault code when they fail.

http://minifans.info/original/R50/Cou/Cooper-W10/ECE/R/N/2001/01/mg-31/ill-31_0594/

The big bill is for the ABS control unit.That's the square thing
under the bonnet with numerous hydraulic pipes sticking out of it .These Bosch units also go wrong (from heat) on BMW's and the cause is a dry solder joint which costs nothing to repair DIY or sometimes a couple of resistors need replacing.Again tips on this can be found on the BMW forums.

The problem with the new Mini seems to be the parts costs are very similar to other BMW models in the luxury sector and dealers will replace the whole unit.

The other option is a breaker.The previous owner of my BMW paid £100 plus £100 fitting for the ABS control unit.

adam

 

[television]

ABS problems are normally just one of the sensors @ circa £50.
Part no 2. A simple hall effect sensor that always flag up a fault code when they fail.

http://minifans.info/original/R50/Cou/Cooper-W10/ECE/R/N/2001/01/mg-31/ill-31_0594/

The big bill is for the ABS control unit.That's the square thing
under the bonnet with numerous hydraulic pipes sticking out of it .These Bosch units also go wrong (from heat) on BMW's and the cause is a dry solder joint which costs nothing to repair DIY or sometimes a couple of resistors need replacing.Again tips on this can be found on the BMW forums.

The problem with the new Mini seems to be the parts costs are very similar to other BMW models in the luxury sector and dealers will replace the whole unit.

The other option is a breaker.The previous owner of my BMW paid £100 plus £100 fitting for the ABS control unit.

adam

adam

The strange thing is Adam that the light only came on when the car moved, and on that note I would have discounted the unit, but I know nothing about mini's

 

[Sp!ke]

Wouldn't the world be a great place if we could all do everything thrown at us? Repair the central heating, rewire a house, reprogramme our computers, solve the ever increasing electronic problems with cars, cook, iron - and so the list could go on!

Actually, I still do ... mostly.

But I purchase stuff carefully and try and always choose things according to their complexity should they go wrong.

I drive old (simple) cars, stray away from any white goods with fancy electronic controllers and I have way way too many tools and manuals.

When my trusty W124 does eventually give up and becomes uneconomical to repair, I'm really stumped as to what I should buy as a replacement car as there's getting fewer and fewer good examples of the model left out there.

My combined household vehicle age is currently 82

 

[hawk20]

If you have a problem it's almost certain someone else on the owners forum will have also had it too and can provide some answers.


adam

Do you happen to have a link to the owners forum please?