CH4 Dispatches - The Great Car Con.

C43AMG

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Why would you buy a Diesel Car :fail
 

Simon_M

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Interesting program but no mention of DPFs on modern diesels. But then again how can anyone be stupid enough to think a car that chucks out loads of black soot from the exhaust under load is not causing harm to the environment and people around it.
 

Ted

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We're all going to die, and you are going to have to pay me to take your filthy diesel off your hands.
 

Howard

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Not called diseasel for nothing ;)
 

grober

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Way back General De Gaulle wanted France to become independent for its generation of electrical power so he decided to Go Nuclear and France embarked on a huge nuclear power station building programme [ Also helped produce fissile material for his Force de Frappe nuclear weapons on the way :eek:] This meant that the oil companies Total et al were left unhappy with a heavy oil fraction which used to be burnt in power stations :(:(:(--- Qu'est-ce qu'on fait--- I know----- lets make a lot of diesel engined cars---- lower the tax on diesel fuel and we can get rid of it that way and keep the oil companies happy:D . Thus France became de facto the manufacturer of diesel engines for Europe. When it came to deciding which technology to adopt to reduce CO2 emissions for EU-- should we go petrol/hybrid like the rest of the developed world- or should we go diesel--- I'll give you one guess as to which major EU PLAYER would be lobbying for the diesel alternative. :rolleyes: And here we are!
If you are looking for why sh*t happens anywhere in the world , if you look deep enough you often end up with Geopolitics and Oil! :dk:
 

parkwood

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Interesting post grober. Our electricity bill (we live in france) shows a breakdown on the method of generation and we are 85% nuclear here in north west france the remaining 15% being renewables , there are lots of wind turbines around now. However diesel makes a lot of sense if you live here as distances driven are far greater albeit the french themselves do not travel the long commuting distances so normal now in the uk. But visiting friends and family and even your nearest major centre is generally a 60km round trip. We clock up 20000 km pa just day to day shopping and visiting friends with holidays on top and no work commuting.
Also were'nt mercedes traditionally the biggest diesel engine builders? Given all the commercial traffic is diesel powered it seems it will be a difficult task to clean up air quality........have to say you hardly see any smoky diesels here now, the odd one but they are not the norm as they once were........
 

Red C220

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Interesting programme.

It's a shame they didn't provide a reasonably direct comparison of "this is what a diesel pumps out vs this is what a petrol pumps out".

It would have been more informative.
 

Swotty

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Interesting post grober. Our electricity bill (we live in france) shows a breakdown on the method of generation and we are 85% nuclear here in north west france the remaining 15% being renewables , there are lots of wind turbines around now. However diesel makes a lot of sense if you live here as distances driven are far greater albeit the french themselves do not travel the long commuting distances so normal now in the uk. But visiting friends and family and even your nearest major centre is generally a 60km round trip. We clock up 20000 km pa just day to day shopping and visiting friends with holidays on top and no work commuting.
Also were'nt mercedes traditionally the biggest diesel engine builders? Given all the commercial traffic is diesel powered it seems it will be a difficult task to clean up air quality........have to say you hardly see any smoky diesels here now, the odd one but they are not the norm as they once were........
Same here (SW France), but it says 89% nuclear.

....... and yes, it's miles to anywhere!

Stuart
 

Bellow

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Attacking GDI engine particulate emissions - SAE International

"It may be surprising to learn that the modern gasoline direct-injection (GDI) engines in today’s passenger cars can emit more hazardous fine particulate matter than a port fuel-injected engine (PFI), or even the latest heavy-duty diesels equipped with a particulate filter"
A cheap filter fixes that. Manufacturers aren't jumping to it until mandated to.
 

Mike Walker

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I found the interview with the Transport Minister at the time revealing. He admitted the mistake of pushing consumers toward diesel and then confirmed that his department new little if anything about the effects of the emmisions on the Great British public.

Interestingly a Scientist in a separate interview on the same programme said the effects have been known about for years!
 

grober

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I was being a tiny bit facetious "blaming" the General for all this diesel madness but it does illustrate the law of unintended consequences of how these things can possibly come about. While I agree that distances are often greater in France that doesn't really explain why the diesel fuel taxation regime has always traditionally been better in France than the UK despite France having a preponderance of diesel cars ???
Petrol prices: Is the price of diesel really that much cheaper in France compared to Britain? | This is Money

Mind you that may be about to change!
 

Bellow

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When it came to deciding which technology to adopt to reduce CO2 emissions for EU-- should we go petrol/hybrid like the rest of the developed world- or should we go diesel--- I'll give you one guess as to which major EU PLAYER would be lobbying for the diesel alternative.
Germany!
Simply, France introduced the Diesel engine to small cars. The Germans then ran with the idea to larger and larger cars giving you what you all adore - the big car with the little fuel bill. Germany makes a shed load more money selling Diesel engined cars, SUVs, etc than France does.
 

grober

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Germany!
Simply, France introduced the Diesel engine to small cars. The Germans then ran with the idea to larger and larger cars giving you what you all adore - the big car with the little fuel bill. Germany makes a shed load more money selling Diesel engined cars, SUVs, etc than France does.
Wouldn't disagree. I was perhaps going back a bit further historically to a time when Mercedes Diesels were mainly taxis, :p but since the 21rst century that has certainly changed. So with the two major car producing EU nations of France and Germany lobbying for diesel and what remained of the Italian and British car industries in decline the result was probably inevitable. :( The last UK bastion of small petrol car manufacture apparently being the Japanese [ excluding Nissan/ Renault ]who had opted for "the way of the spark plug":thumb:
 

balge

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A cheap filter fixes that. Manufacturers aren't jumping to it until mandated to.


Even if they are ever mandated, there will no doubt be floods of threads on car forums on how to remove the filter to improve performance...


And it won't help with Nox emissions...

p.39 -

http://www.ecotraffic.se/media/5508/11.__2009__partiklar_fr_n_drivmedel.pdf

The NOx emissions from GDI vehicles are significantly higher than conventionally petrol vehicles; this is well illustrated by numerous studied [Lu 2000, Hall 1999]. The lean burn principle of the GDI requires other type of NOx after-treatment device than TWC [Li 2009a], the development of after-treatment technology for GDI will not be further discussed here.



 

Bernie36968

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You have to remember that only about a decade ago diesel engines were being touted as the car that would save the planet and we would all be running on vegetable oil by now. Even the Greens were pushing the idea.
 

Bellow

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Even if they are ever mandated, there will no doubt be floods of threads on car forums on how to remove the filter to improve performance...
Probabaly. They could of course just buy a car with the power (they think) they want that delivers with filter left in place....

And it won't help with Nox emissions...

p.39 -

http://www.ecotraffic.se/media/5508/11.__2009__partiklar_fr_n_drivmedel.pdf

The NOx emissions from GDI vehicles are significantly higher than conventionally petrol vehicles; this is well illustrated by numerous studied [Lu 2000, Hall 1999]. The lean burn principle of the GDI requires other type of NOx after-treatment device than TWC [Li 2009a], the development of after-treatment technology for GDI will not be further discussed here.



NOx limits for petrols have been easily met for years but now Diesels have to meet the same standard they require all manner of exhaust treatment.

''Traditionally the EU limits for diesel NOx emissions are
significantly higher than for petrol cars. The scenario will be changed in Euro 6
regulations, the NOx limits for diesel vehicles will be at the similar levels as petrol
cars, thanks to the potential brought by the rapidly developed after-treatment
technology.''

The same treatment is available for petrol engines should their limit be lowered. Is there anything on the horizon for the Diesel if its limits are further reduced?

edit PS
Lots of info re GDI filters (from 2014) here >> http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/e5b6bd2e#/e5b6bd2e/44
 
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