Classic SL R107

[karozza]

Been prodding at the idea of a classic for quite some time now. For two reasons mainly, passion & hopefully an investment.

The SL is now at the right time to be a classic over here at no older than 1985. This commands a very cheap € 8.00 annual road tax which seems to be creating quite an interest in classic cars now. The Pagoda has really started to pick up on pricing & so, an attractive R107 might be at an affordable price now & increase in value?!

I'm willing to do some work (kind of wheeler dealers amount) but definitely not a full restoration or even replacing half of the car. Preferably, it should be a mechanically reasonable example as if bought from the UK, I would really like to drive it back, just for the fun of it.

Well that's my story, please share your thoughts/ideas/experiences/prices.

Some queries do come to mind like which is the most desirable or most likely to appreciate in price, 6 cylinder 280 or the V8 models?

One issue that does give me concern, especially as I would also like to enjoy it, most do not have Aircon; can this be fitted & if so, very expensive??

Where should I start this adventure if I were to go forward apart from Autotrader & Ebay??

 

[mabz]

Sounds like a fun project. Carandclassic is a good website for classics but you would most likely get a better deal on eBay, I doubt a/c would be a problem to retrofit i have it in my 87 w201 If you see any for sale in Cambridge and want a second opinion I wouldn't mind coming along.
All the best

 

[noy91]

Provenance and condition will determine future value more than engine choice, but I would be focusing on either the 280 or 450 - not a huge amount in it performance wise, although the 450 requires fewer revs, but the 280 is lighter and has better weight distribution. Post 1980 examples have the 4 instead of 3 speed box, and are probably worth seeking out. The 350 combines the weight and fuel penalties of the 450 but brings little to the table in terms of performance. The V8s will likely be better equipped however.

 

[219]

No older than 85 excludes the earlier models anyway , and you'll be looking at facelift cars .

Regardless , I'd venture that the M103 300SL is a much better car than the older 280 SL with the thrashy and thirsty M110 ; the 300 will also return better fuel economy , as well as being smoother and more powerful .

Similarly , the older 350 and 450 engines are thirsty beasts ( the 350 is actually slower than the 280 due to only marginally more power but with the higher gearing of the 450 ) ; the later V8 engines are better with the 500 the best option IMHO .

A 300 and 500 will both run happily on unleaded , I think the older V8s might need modification. As said above , the later cars have four speed boxes while the earlier ones are three speeders .

The main thing with any of these cars is body condition - there are lots of thoroughly rotten ones about , pay particular attention to the plenium chambers under the grilles in front of the windscreen - these often fill up with water , rot through , leaking water into the footwells , causing further rust , and are an absolute PITA to repair because of their location . These cars also rust just about everywhere else , but most other bits are easily spotted .

 

[mct_cars]

^ What he said but watch out for rust twice and then look again. Post 85 facelift is worth seeking out as many under the skin mods were done.

Silversaloon's little Blog (member on here) gives good examples of jobs required on one that might look outwardly sound but will hide issues (and his wasn't particularly bad compared to some I've viewed as "mint"!)

Mercedes R107 SL Restoration

Once sorted, lovely cruiser, just don't expect to do laps in it - these cars were designed in the late 60's! Everyone has a preference, mine is the V8 for the noise and torque. Expect 16MPG on the 500 knocking about, 25 on a run. Expect around 3MPG more that that in a 300, and expect low teens on anything pre 1980, especially the 450.

 

[karozza]

I meant really that to be a classic here, it has to be up to 1985(30 years or older), so would be looking at around 1980-85 for the face lift versions.

Yes, I have read about the unfortunate bulkhead rust problems which would be a bit difficult to detect & a real pain to get fixed. This does put me back a bit.

Alternatively, I could try to find one of my other favorite cars, the Porsche 944 Turbo. 1985 is the year they started making them turbo. These, on the other hand are more maintenance & not so sure if they will appreciate as well!

 

[219]

Ah , OK . Up to 1985 would allow you to look at 500SL's then as that engine was introduced earlier .

IIRC , the 300SL came out round about the same time the W124 was introduced , so around 1986 in the UK , for a RHD car , but if you didn't mind LHD then you might find slightly earlier ones on the continent - Germany probably being the best place to look .

With the age restriction being no later than 85 , my first choice would be a 500 , second if I could find one , an early 300 and lastly a 280 .

My mum had a 350SL back in the day and it was just as well petrol was relatively cheap besides it being just a car for going to the shops in as she only got something like 12-14 mpg out of it - that was considered normal and I think our petrol Land Rover did better !

 

[karozza]

Ah , OK . Up to 1985 would allow you to look at 500SL's then as that engine was introduced earlier .

IIRC , the 300SL came out round about the same time the W124 was introduced , so around 1986 in the UK , for a RHD car , but if you didn't mind LHD then you might find slightly earlier ones on the continent - Germany probably being the best place to look .

With the age restriction being no later than 85 , my first choice would be a 500 , second if I could find one , an early 300 and lastly a 280 .

My mum had a 350SL back in the day and it was just as well petrol was relatively cheap besides it being just a car for going to the shops in as she only got something like 12-14 mpg out of it - that was considered normal and I think our petrol Land Rover did better !

That sounds like the mileage I get from my SL55 The 500SL would be my first choice too, simply for the big V8. But if I buy, it must be an intelligent decision this time & not with my heart

I'm assuming if it's on the road, it would already be running on unleaded?! LHD is more difficult to sell on when the time comes. Also, would need to look into which is the most sought after as a quick look around shows that V8s are more available than the 280. The 300 is not yet a classic as they were available from 1986 in RHD as you state. Although, this could still be a good option if the right priced one came along as I could keep it & not register it till next year to be a classic, will have to look into this as well. This could be the best one for re-sale?!

Going back to the plenum chambers, what is the easiest way to check if these are badly rotted?? Are they mostly affected??

What about high mileage cars, apart from service history, which might be a challenge on most because of age/change of owners, are these high maintenance cars with many mechanical problems??

 

[karozza]

I went to see a 1984(or so he says) 280SL & it smelled nasty. It was just like the smell of trapped mould, could this be leakage from the plenum chambers??

 

[219]

Hi , yes damp in the front footwells is one of the signs as water leaks down into there ; otherwise you have to strip out trim above the footwells and poke around - not so many vendors are likely to be happy about this ?

The 500 is one of the best engines ( I've driven 500SL's when new and ran a 500SEL for several years ) service them regularly and they are pretty much unburstable . The engine is surprisingly economical to run too - I normally got low 20's with my SEL but could on a long run see 25 or slightly more . I've driven most variants of SL , but never owned one , however I owned a 300TE and put over 150K on it , that is a very good engine too ; many say they are prone to leaking CHG problems but I never experienced this with either my 300TE , 190E 2.6 or my 300TE-24 all of which are variants of the same engine .

Both the M117 (500) and the M103/104 do go through distributor caps every so often .

Re unleaded , there are lots of cars being run on either LRP or unleaded plus additives , or in a few cases , on the tiny amount of leaded petrol still available through a very few outlets . I have to repeat I'm not sure about the early V8 engines ( M116 ? ) but it is worth checking up on .

I've had more M110 engined cars than I care to remember , and done interstellar mileages in some of them . A very nice engine to pootle around with , but can be thrashy at revs and almost as thirsty as the V8's . Get a good low mileage one and they can be smooth , but few are nowadays . Oil leaks from the bottom of the cambox are common but look worse than they are so not a huge concern . These engines tend to burn HT leads due to lack of space , causing shorts to ground and misfires .

Re unleaded ,

 

[mct_cars]

Facelift was all production after May 1985 280 replaced by 300, 380 replaced by 420 and 500 replaced with.... 500 (slightly different power outputs ). It will be tough to seek one out, but it would be worth it. Easiest way to tell them apart was the larger front air dam (although a lot have been retrofitted), and the air filter housing having an extended plastic intake to the front bulkhead.

Derek - easiest way to understand the M116 & M117 nomenclature is this:-

M116 = short block smaller capacities - 350, 380 and 420 engines
M117 - higher block larger capacities - 450, 500, 560.

They're all basically the same two engine blocks with capacity changes and fuel injection method changes throughout the years (D-Jet on early cars, K-Jet from '76 and on the 500, Ke-Injection from 85).

 

[karozza]

TBH I'm now getting a bit skeptical about the rust problem being that it's quite difficult to assess the hidden damage.

On the other hand, it could also be a bonus if confirmed healthy for re-sale!?

 

[mct_cars]

Main places for Rust:-

- Pull back front carpets and check where the inner sills meet the bulkhead (rust comes through from the wheel arch bottoms.
- ealy cars suffer from rust in the front inner wings (because there's no wheel arch liners) Easy to spot again with a screwdriver and a tap.

Get one of those endoscope type cameras and a laptop and check the following:-
- Take off the black blower motor cover and look inside - any rot round here, walk away.
- Look under and around the battery tray - if the drain hole has been blocked and not treated quickly, rust eats through the bulkhead.
- Look under the front of the car - there should be a rubber grommet on the right hand chassis leg right beside the radiator. Take it off and have a poke around - unusual to not be any rust in there, but anything you can poke through with a screwdriver is a problem as it's structural.
- On the outer sills, look at jacking points and drain holes where the bottom of the front wing and doors meet.
- Take off one of the rubber gromits on the bottom of the outer sills - poke your camera in there - outer sills are easy to replace, but any major rust on the inner sill is a big issue as it's the main structure of the car.
- Look in the soft top cover - rust collects where the rubber seal goes all around (stupid design - the water has no-where to go but sit in the little gulley!)
- Front and rear bumper chromes - they rust from underneath the chrome - any bulges mean it'll be rotten underneath and expensive to replace.
- Rear bumper valences - they rust from underneath the rubber surround. Replacements are now being made in fibreglass which might make sense and cut a bit of weight!

Don't be put off with all of the above - a good one will always be a good one and appreciate as time goes on. Find a good one and do all of the preventative jobs over time - waxoyl the whole thing etc. and they'll go on for ever. These cars were heavily over engineered, but back when it was designed there was very little understanding of rust!!

 

[bolide]

If you're thinking about resale value, restoring a car is almost never cost-effective. Buying a good car up front is a better bet

Despite being galvanised, Porsche 944s rust in the sills, and it's very common for them to have been repaired. They seem to hold up well with age and prices are rising

I think with both cars the expensive bits will be trim. Getting a tatty interior to look right is not a job I'd ever take on. R107 trim parts, chrome & interior pieces will be viciously expensive as demand will be high. The 944 turbo shares the majority of its parts with other 944s, so there should be no shortage of used parts. Some Porsche suspension parts are NLA but there are aftermarket suppliers

Nick Froome

 

[karozza]

If you're thinking about resale value, restoring a car is almost never cost-effective. Buying a good car up front is a better bet

Despite being galvanised, Porsche 944s rust in the sills, and it's very common for them to have been repaired. They seem to hold up well with age and prices are rising

I think with both cars the expensive bits will be trim. Getting a tatty interior to look right is not a job I'd ever take on. R107 trim parts, chrome & interior pieces will be viciously expensive as demand will be high. The 944 turbo shares the majority of its parts with other 944s, so there should be no shortage of used parts. Some Porsche suspension parts are NLA but there are aftermarket suppliers

Nick Froome

Yes, the 944 is another option I'm very keen on. The sills are more visible for inspection than the R107 & most have been repaired or in good order. Other than that, I'm not so sure dealers/owners will appreciate me prodding through their R107 to establish the extent of rust.

I'm still trying to see whether it is essential to to go for the turbo or non turbo, since the turbo started in late 1985. 944 (with the Oval dash) will be more available. Also I'm not too keen on the turbo lag on these cars.

On the other hand, I just can't manage to get the 944 Turbo Mike Brewer bought on Wheeler Dealers out of my head.....

 

[bolide]

The 944 turbo is a car I'd like to have at some point. I test drove one at AFN and was more than somewhat impressed. I had a 1986 Oval Dash 944 at the time. I ran it for three years and really liked it. The handling & comfort appealed to me and the car was quick enough to be fun and practical enough to be a daily driver

The turbo isn't a mad, bad version of the 944, it's a more grown-up car with more power and a lot more torque. It overcomes the only problem of the base 944 - it's too heavy for the power & torque it has

My recommendation is the limited-edition Cup model with the Silver Rose bodywork - they will appreciate very well in the next few years. The Cup was the first turbo with 250Bhp, and later standard turbos used the same engine. The tartan upholstery won't be to everyone's taste but I love it - so 1980s!

Nick Froome

 

[karozza]

The 944 turbo is a car I'd like to have at some point. I test drove one at AFN and was more than somewhat impressed. I had a 1986 Oval Dash 944 at the time. I ran it for three years and really liked it. The handling & comfort appealed to me and the car was quick enough to be fun and practical enough to be a daily driver The turbo isn't a mad, bad version of the 944, it's a more grown-up car with more power and a lot more torque. It overcomes the only problem of the base 944 - it's too heavy for the power & torque it has My recommendation is the limited-edition Cup model with the Silver Rose bodywork - they will appreciate very well in the next few years. The Cup was the first turbo with 250Bhp, and later standard turbos used the same engine. The tartan upholstery won't be to everyone's taste but I love it - so 1980s! Nick Froome

I've already spoken to an owner of the Silver Rose & they are very limited to find, hence already commanding high prices. Likewise the 944 Turbo are already increasing in price as good ones are becoming less available. My real concern with these, is cost of repairs, they can become very expensive so have to be quite careful on mechanical condition as well. Otherwise, repair costs might supersede the increase in value!

 

[Charles Morgan]

Otherwise, repair costs might supersede the increase in value!

Change might for will and you have classic car ownership* in a nutshell. Especially those at the cheaper end of the market. Use them, enjoy them, and if you are lucky and have no major expenses when you come to sell, you might cover your motoring costs. Get a single problem and you don't get bills under a £1000.

*Desirable Ferraris and early 911s excepted.

 

[NOMONEYBUTAMERC]

In the 4 years that I have owned my R107 it has given me great pleasure. However , I wish I had spent more initially and bought a tidier example. Mine shows no sign of rust in the plenum chambers , although it has had welding carried out in the floor .Do not expect sports car handling, the R107 is a great Grand Tourer , but handles like a cabin cruiser in a whirlpool. As a weekend cruiser they are great cars , not as cool as the earlier Pagoda , but in my biased opinion , nicer than their successor. Good luck with whatever you choose.My 450 averages high teens in mpg around town , and up to 24/25 on a run.

 

[karozza]

Does the R107 use the old type gas to re-charge the air conditioning??