Copper Grease

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I make a lot of money out of this so I find it better than most things...

If you don't like it.....
 
WDB124066 said:
I make a lot of money out of this so I find it better than most things... If you don't like it.....
nothing against the cooper slip....:D!
 
Maybe that's why Rolf had to tie his kangaroo down - sport. :):)
 
WDB124066 said:
Maybe that's why Rolf had to tie his kangaroo down - sport. :):)
tell him to put it back up!
Or it doesn't go up anymore?:D
 
Not really my type of coating but I would go and always have gone, clean and dry threads on road wheels. Greasing the threads attracts grit and moisture which itself could cause binding. Correctly torqued dry bolts have never given me any issues.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=82119

From the link above:


'...Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts...

...a greased contact at this interface *can* result in slippage under extreme loading, which will load the bolts in shear and bending which they are not designed for.'


...so no copper grease on the hub face either, it would seem.
 
From the link above:


'...Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts...

...a greased contact at this interface *can* result in slippage under extreme loading, which will load the bolts in shear and bending which they are not designed for.'



...so no copper grease on the hub face either, it would seem.

So, if we are being absolutely correct, the hub face acting as a clutch surface should not be painted. Oh hang on, this could lead to the surface rusting and becoming even more detrimental. Ah hang on, a smear of copperslip should do the trick. ;) Incidentally, when you get down to brass tacks with the boffins, the depth of paint in microns on the mating surfaces does enter the equation when considering tightening torques.
 
I imagine the torque required to break traction between tyre and road surface is far inferior to that required to induce slip between wheel and hub when tightened to the designed level, irrespective of hub surface condition.
 
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Lots of reference to 'copper grease'. Is CS actually a grease with the same lubricating properties as true grease or is it an anti-seize compound with much less lubrication? :dk:

I don't know so am asking the question of those that might. If it's not a true grease and it's lubricating coefficient is less then maybe it's use on wheel bolt threads are not quite the devil as claimed.

:dk::dk::dk:
 
markjay said:
From the link above:

'...Incidentally, the joint face between the wheel and hub should also remain dry - this face is, effectively, a clutch face transmitting drive and braking torque between the hub and wheel. This torque should be transmitted by the friction, and not by shearing the bolts....

It isnt a cluch face, otherwise it wouldnt be smooth.bolts are designed to take the load without shearing...
 
Yawnnnn
I will carry on using it irrespective of the theories!
I only put it on the once when I first get a car. I dont put it on again after that.
 
Lots of reference to 'copper grease'. Is CS actually a grease with the same lubricating properties as true grease or is it an anti-seize compound with much less lubrication? :dk:

I don't know so am asking the question of those that might. If it's not a true grease and it's lubricating coefficient is less then maybe it's use on wheel bolt threads are not quite the devil as claimed.

:dk::dk::dk:

From what I was taught many years ago, copper grease is indeed a lubricant. It is not actually intended as anti-seize compound per-se. Its unique quality is in having a very high melting point, which makes it suitable for use in applications where other type of grease would have melted away due to high temperatures.

EDIT - from Wikipedia:

'Copper is added to some greases for high pressure applications, or where corrosion could prevent dis-assembly of components later in their service life. Copaslip is the registered trademark of one such grease produced by Molyslip Atlantic Ltd, and has become a generic term (often misspelled as "copperslip" or "coppaslip") for anti-seize lubricants which contain copper.'

So it is grease/lubricant... and it does have anti-seize properties by design.
 
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The torque wrench is the culprit,no problem puting a little grease.tighten wheel bolts by hand with the original wrench supplied.I had loose bolts after using the torque wrench.perhaps should by set at 150nm.but I would not use it again

What creates the resistance you're torquing against ?
Solely friction at the bolt taper and threads.
Reducing that friction increases axial tension in the bolt.

If you could use a tensiometer to measure bolt load directly, you wouldn't bother with a torque wrench.
Manuf's base calculations of bolt load on dry friction-load coefficients.
Wheel bolts have a substantial tensile-failure margin of safety - so failure is unlikely.

But why grease bolts anyway ?
It only picks up grit when from the ground which scores and degrades thread faces.
And it's messy.

I'd just be inclined to use a semi-soft wire brush and wipe afterwards.
 
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The important bit with bolts is the installed tension... very basically (and ignoring 'stretch bolts') they need to be tightened until they just begin to stretch which results in an easily reversable interference fit of the threads. Metals bend and stretch in two ways, elastically and permantly. The former occurs over a very small range and when the force is removed the piece returns to origional dimensions. Then when the yield point is reached they stay stretched/bent although a small amount of 'springback' occurs which is due to the smallish window of elastic behaviour

Installed tension is difficult to measure but can be calculated from torque values with one caveat... a large portion of the torque applied when tightening a fastener is due to friction which means that the state of the threads makes a massive difference to the actual installed tension for a given torque value- clean and dry versus manky/crud in the threads versus lubrication

There's a generic torque chart here that provides values for both dry and lubed threads (different K factors)... http://www.spirol.co.uk/library/sub_catalogs/cmpl-Torque_Specifications_us.pdf
M12 x 1.5 class 10.9 is fairly typical of many wheel bolts and the torque figure for MBs with this size of wheel bolt is typically 110Nm.
The torque values given in the link are 131.5Nm dry (k factor of 0.2) or 98.6Nm lubed (k factor of 0.15).
Many manufacturers of anti seize and other thread lubricants publish k factors for their products as the type of lubricant makes a difference for example http://www.henkel.mx/mxe/content_data/83749_LT3355v4_MROantiseize.pdf

Then there's lubricating the face of the hub itself which is a common one for people that have encountered wheels that had corroded to it... the wheel bolts themselves are only supposed to clamp the wheel tightly to the hub and the joint is then supposed to function kinda like a clutch i.e. it's the friction between the mating surfaces that deals with torque from acceleration, braking etc. If the driving forces were taken by the bolts they'd be subjected to bending and shear loads which isn't ideal. This is also one of the reasons behind hubcentric wheel mounting i.e. the hub has a piloting diameter which locates the wheel concentrically leaving the bolts to act purely in tension

I was off work Friday, but having chatted with some colleagues on this topic this morning, all I can say is what hotrodder says above.

So I think I'm right in summerising;
No lubrication, tighten to stated MB torque.
With lubrication, reduced torque as above, to achive the same clamping load.

I will admit that the principle of the hub/rim contact face friction acting as "clutch" (for want of a better, more technical term) is new to me. And makes perfect sense.
 
It doesnt make sense,otherwise as soon as the bolts are loose, they will shear off strait away wich isnt the case.And reducing the torque on slightly lubricated thread is wrong.the most of the grease is squeesed out of the threads anyway..
 
hotrodder said:
This is also one of the reasons behind hubcentric wheel mounting i.e. the hub has a piloting diameter which locates the wheel concentrically leaving the bolts to act purely in tension

If that's important then all wheel spacers should be banned and any drilling to enlarge the wheel bore also...
 
It doesnt make sense,otherwise as soon as the bolts are loose, they will shear off strait away wich isnt the case.And reducing the torque on slightly lubricated thread is wrong.the most of the grease is squeesed out of the threads anyway..

This post is misleading [well let's just say plain wrong] and is not accepted Engineering practice.
 
As per your post #73. Over torquing threads is not good practice, especially older worn ones...
 
As per your post #73. Over torquing threads is not good practice, especially older worn ones...
Me? I'm confused..:confused: I was refering to why ivandraganov thinks the principle of the clamp loading is wrong.

I think i'm out of this one. It's going to go around in circles!
 

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