Covid-19 Discussion - STRICTLY NO POLITICS!

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ChipChop

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When I got my shot, I did get a form with a QR code pointing to a 'yellow card' for reporting side effects. So there's clearly a system in place to collect side-effects data. I don't know what the system that the NHS in the UK are using is called, but I don't think the data collected will be held from the public.

But let me understand this right - are you in favour or opposed to vaccination? You have never confirmed or denied whether you will personally accept a vaccine when offered to you (and, incidentally, you haven't confirmed or denied if you believe in any of the various so-called 'conspiracy theories' behind the vaccination programme). Of, course, it is perfectly understandable if you do not wish to share this information with other forum members, but it would be helpful to know where you're coming from, and it will allow us to better-understabd the context when reading your posts.

As for me... well, I have been offered the vaccine and accepted, and no I don't believe in any of the so-called 'conspiracy theories.

EDIT: just saw SW18's post.
I have no idea of the rate of adverse reactions in the UK or the USA so what is your "More that 170m(!) people worldwide have received COVID-19 vaccines since December, with no major side effects." based on? Something you heard on the news, on tv or in the media. Feel free to share.

I could look on the US VAERS database as it is open to the public.


The UK system at first glance appears to be clinical professionals only.
 

Scooby_Doo

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But let me understand this right - are you in favour or opposed to vaccination? You have never confirmed or denied whether you will personally accept a vaccine when offered to you (and, incidentally, you haven't confirmed or denied if you believe in any of the various so-called 'conspiracy theories' behind the vaccination programme). Of, course, it is perfectly understandable if you do not wish to share this information with other forum members, but it would be helpful to know where you're coming from, and it will allow us to better-understabd the context when reading your posts.

I have no idea of the rate of adverse reactions in the UK or the USA so what is your "More that 170m(!) people worldwide have received COVID-19 vaccines since December, with no major side effects." based on? Something you heard on the news, on tv or in the media. Feel free to share.

I could look on the US VAERS database as it is open to the public.


The UK system at first glance appears to be clinical professionals only.
Are you likely to answer "Markjay's" question and enlighten us all. You've gone to a great deal of effort to post so much data on this thread but rarely offered an opinion or conclusion .
 
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My dad used to tell me stories like that at bedtime when I was three years old , the only difference being , he knew they were fairy stories.
Which bit is a “fairy story”?

There’s clearly two different mindsets on this thread (admittedly with the odd interloper) - one is happy to accept everything the government decrees and get all hot & flustered when they experience feelings of cognitive dissonance and then there are those who like to hold their elected officials to account and prefer to question the orthodoxy as oppose to blindly obeying it.
 

AMGeed

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I have read this thread from the beginning and have been educated along the way by members who appear to know what they are talking about.

I'd love to know who, if anyone, has the professional qualifications (virologist anyone?) to state facts about CV-19. Not graphs or cherry picked text from the web but actual medical knowledge about viruses.
 

markjay

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I have no idea of the rate of adverse reactions in the UK or the USA so what is your "More that 170m(!) people worldwide have received COVID-19 vaccines since December, with no major side effects." based on? Something you heard on the news, on tv or in the media. Feel free to share.

I could look on the US VAERS database as it is open to the public.


The UK system at first glance appears to be clinical professionals only.

Without going into the comparison between the various systems for reporting side effects... allow me to try and get some context for this exchange.

- Is your view that people might refuse the vaccine because they are concerned that the reported side-effects are not disclosed to the public?

- If so, is this also your own personal view - or are you just hypnotising that some people might feel that way (while you don't)?

- or, are you simply impartiality pointing-out what you see as possible weakness in the structure of my argument, but without taking any sides or expressing a personal opinion on the matter?
 

markjay

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..I'd love to know who, if anyone, has the professional qualifications (virologist anyone?) to state facts about CV-19. Not graphs or cherry picked text from the web but actual medical knowledge about viruses.

You have just killed this thread..... :crazy: :D
 

ChipChop

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Without going into the comparison between the various systems for reporting side effects... allow me to try and get some context for this exchange.

- Is your view that people might refuse the vaccine because they are concerned that the reported side-effects are not disclosed to the public?

- If so, is this also your own personal view - or are you just hypnotising that some people might feel that way (while you don't)?

- or, are you simply impartiality pointing-out what you see as possible weakness in the structure of my argument, but without taking any sides or expressing a personal opinion on the matter?
It is my personal view that there is a long established process of informed consent to medical treatment. An important part of medical ethics and international human rights law. The reporting of side effects or adverse reactions should be a known factor and form part of an individuals thought process when considering the matter of consent to treatment.
Maybe some disagree. Maybe some think the current situation warrants medical ethics and international human rights law should be amended.
 
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Bobby Dazzler

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- If so, is this also your own personal view - or are you just hypnotising that some people might feel that way (while you don't)?
I suspect that the spellchecker changed “hypothesising” to “hypnotising” and on this rare occasion I prefer the incorrect correction. 😁
 

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On the subjective of it going quiet - and although some do really seem to enjoy their TL;DR posts - I think it’s simply thread fatigue kicking in; there’s a broad line drawn between those who happily do as they’re told and would gladly stay in lockdown ad infinitum like good little boys and then there are those who are keen on holding those in power to account for their decisions (as should be expected in any democracy) while also realising the catastrophic effect it’s had on those least at risk of illness or death.
Which bit is a “fairy story”?

There’s clearly two different mindsets on this thread (admittedly with the odd interloper) - one is happy to accept everything the government decrees and get all hot & flustered when they experience feelings of cognitive dissonance and then there are those who like to hold their elected officials to account and prefer to question the orthodoxy as oppose to blindly obeying it.
I don't think it's thread fatigue kicking in , there were quite a few members who, up until the death rate figures were published for January were downplaying the effect of Covid 19 on this country.
What makes you believe that anybody would want lockdown to continue, irrespective of who they are or how old they are. I'm following the rules of lockdown because I believe that it's the only way to try and keep cases down until the vaccination programme is well under way and takes the pressure off the NHS. I appreciate that a lot of people are suffering great hardship during this lockdown and the economy is taking a nosedive but I can't see another solution to the problem but you might give us your thoughts as to how else we might overcome it. Only rule is - you can't let everybody catch it and overlook the "catastrophic "death toll of people uncapable of resisting the virus.
 

ChipChop

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Cases UK (Red) against cases Sweden (Black). UK using NPI's. Sweden not using NPI's.

Despite the differences in approach such as UK lockdown and NPI's, Sweden no lockdown (less people to meet in groups from early January onwards but all shops still open) both countries saw a dramatic drop in cases from mid January onwards.

What can account for this?
casesukvsweden.jpg
 
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flowrider

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I have read this thread from the beginning and have been educated along the way by members who appear to know what they are talking about.

I'd love to know who, if anyone, has the professional qualifications (virologist anyone?) to state facts about CV-19. Not graphs or cherry picked text from the web but actual medical knowledge about viruses.
My guess is that no one has any professional qualifications but that never stopped anyone.
 

artyman

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Well I can say the only side effect i had was the injection site on my arm ached for 24 hrs, but then if I stuck a 2" needle in anybody's arm regardless of injecting anything I would expect it to be a bit tender. As regards those resistant to having the vaccine, OK not compulsory, but if you are unfortunate to catch Covid why the heck should the NHS waste it's resources on you, just lie in your bed and hope you recover.
 

markjay

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Cases UK (Red) against cases Sweden (Black). UK using NPI's. Sweden not using NPI's.

Despite the differences in approach such as UK lockdown and NPI's, Sweden no lockdown (less people to meet in groups from early January onwards but all shops still open) both countries saw a dramatic drop in cases from mid January onwards.

What can account for this?
View attachment 108926

This is what the BBC had to say about Sweden's anti-COVID measures:

'Until now, the Swedish government has relied mostly on the public following official health recommendations voluntarily.'

Perhaps the similarity in case-per-capita patterns between the UK and Sweeden is due to the fact that over there people actually do what the government says?
 

Bobby Dazzler

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Perhaps the similarity in case-per-capita patterns between the UK and Sweeden is due to the fact that over there people actually do what the government says?
At the weekend I saw someone refuse to wear a mask in the supermarket for the first time and their whole attitude made everyone else feel uncomfortable.

Firstly they were a couple, both went into the shop at the same time, and both refused to wear a mask. Secondly it appeared that they were deliberately charging around, being loud, and getting far too close to other people. It was as if they were enjoying making other people feel uncomfortable.

That’s the first time I’ve seen such behaviour but I dare say that it happens all the time, and I’ve just been lucky so far having not encountered it until now.
 

st13phil

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Perhaps the similarity in case-per-capita patterns between the UK and Sweeden is due to the fact that over there people actually do what the government says?
Or alternatively that many of the NPI's deployed have far less effect than the scientists thought they would?

The reality is that there is a great deal of assumption (presumption?) and very little verifiable evidence around the vast majority of the NPI's.

For example, UK schools have been closed or partially closed for much of the last year on the presumption that they were a significant infection vector. Yet schools in Germany have been open (including for students to sit exams) pretty much the entire time, schools in France have been open throughout the "second wave", and in other countries too. On a broader scale, Peru had one of the most oppressive lockdowns of any country outside China, yet it has experienced similar outcomes to Brazil which was much less restrictive.

The only NPI with strong verifiable benefits is hand washing and related personal hygiene actions, and that hardly needs enforcement by way of criminal law.

I know we've been round this loop before, but it's an incontrovertible fact that people will and do change their behaviour in response to perceived disease risk. Compulsory restrictions on basic freedoms justified on the basis of it being "for the greater good" are a very questionable policy from a moral standpoint, even more so when there is a paucity of evidence that they have a positive effect - on either a narrow (infection prevention) or broader (overall effect including collateral damage) basis.
 
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Flyinspanner

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Maybe if every single “non essential” shop, cinema, hotel, gym, pool, sports venue, restaurant, wedding venue, airline, cruise ship, train, gets the choice to exclude people who have chosen not to get vaccinated, I‘d be happy.

Those who cannot have it due to a medical exemption are probably careful about catching it/ taking precautions, and are probably low risk.

You can choose not to have it, but you also have to suck up the consequences. Including ( imho) if you catch it, you pay the direct costs of your treatment on the NHS.

Those stupid enough to think it will suddenly make them drones of Bill Gates, or so arrogant they think their Facebook Doctorate outweighs medical science won’t be missed at social gatherings anyway. :)
 

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I don't think it's thread fatigue kicking in , there were quite a few members who, up until the death rate figures were published for January were downplaying the effect of Covid 19 on this country.
What makes you believe that anybody would want lockdown to continue, irrespective of who they are or how old they are. I'm following the rules of lockdown because I believe that it's the only way to try and keep cases down until the vaccination programme is well under way and takes the pressure off the NHS. I appreciate that a lot of people are suffering great hardship during this lockdown and the economy is taking a nosedive but I can't see another solution to the problem but you might give us your thoughts as to how else we might overcome it. Only rule is - you can't let everybody catch it and overlook the "catastrophic "death toll of people uncapable of resisting the virus.
Hear, hear!

My own view is Darwin's Theory will take of the anti-vaxers. However as previously stated, if they catch COVID and have not been vaccinated, it is self inflicted and they must pay for their hospital (or palliative) care. Why should the state and tax payer be burdened because of their stupidity.

Very easy for the nay sayers to take these stances when there is a massive NHS safetynet for them.
 
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