CRIME AND (Lack Of) PUNISHMENT

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Smarties

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OK, I know its emotive and have had similar debates before at great length as to if the punishment fits the crime (Ronnie Biggs etc). Today’s news that the pair of little s###s that tortured, sexually abused and beat to within an inch of their lives a pair of young lads, have been handed an indeterminate sentence, to be no less than 5 years!! :mad:, is, I feel, frankly Outrageous.
When they are considered ‘reformed’ and no longer a danger they can be released.
Like the killers of Jamie Bulger before them, we are no doubt going to afford them the same luxury of bed, board and one to one tuition, the likes of which we could only get for ‘our’ children if we had sufficient incomes to pay for a private education or boarding school. They will no doubt on their release incur the taxpayer further considerable expense as they are given new identities and provided with social housing.
What deterrent is this, and what message does it send to other dysfunctional families and young thugs? Even given their age, should they not be facing the prospect of 15 years minimum?
 

para alpha

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OK, I know its emotive and have had similar debates before at great length as to if the punishment fits the crime (Ronnie Biggs etc). Today’s news that the pair of little s###s that tortured, sexually abused and beat to within an inch of their lives a pair of young lads, have been handed an indeterminate sentence, to be no less than 5 years!! :mad:, is, I feel, frankly Outrageous.
When they are considered ‘reformed’ and no longer a danger they can be released.
Like the killers of Jamie Bulger before them, we are no doubt going to afford them the same luxury of bed, board and one to one tuition, the likes of which we could only get for ‘our’ children if we had sufficient incomes to pay for a private education or boarding school. They will no doubt on their release incur the taxpayer further considerable expense as they are given new identities and provided with social housing.
What deterrent is this, and what message does it send to other dysfunctional families and young thugs? Even given their age, should they not be facing the prospect of 15 years minimum?
The message is Loud and Clear... Crime Pays!
 

pipmk

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What utter ****, what do you want to happen to two children,the details of whose violent, abused upbringing you have surely read, hanging?
What they did was horrible, dreadful and so unspeakable as to make it obvious that they are badly disturbed children. Yes it's going to be expensive to keep them locked up in a secure unit whilst they are reformed, so what? It would be much more expensive to keep them in gaol for 40 years.
As for the suggestion that other 9 year olds will hatch a plan to commit a serious crime to get the same treatment, you need help, you are barking as is Para Alpha.
I pray you never reproduce or we will have more dysfunctional children.
 
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HR17

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I blame the parents.

String 'em up.

Compulsory sterilisation should be done to those who are at risk of giving birth to kids they can't look after, and will eventually follow their parents into the underclass and a life of crime and misery for others.
 

davidjpowell

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There are so many people to blame where do you start. Is it the parents, the children, the social services, the nhs or the Police.

Ultimately is has to be the whole 'group' to some degree or other. Clearly the parents are a starting point, but once the agencies get involved you would hope and expect the situation to improve.

Eddington where they come from is a deprived area, and parts of it are unpleasant. It's a former mining village. Given that it has a strong community, and the people I know from there are shocked.

I tend to think the level of punishment is right. Ultimately what these kids did is very wrong, but you would think that they must have known that at the time. Once they have served their time, and hopefully recognise better what is right and wrong what is the point in keeping them inside?

I just hope that anything like this never happens again.
 

ringway

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The one thing I have never grasped is why the identity of criminal children is hidden.

There are images of law abiding children on the front of magazine's etc.

So why hide the identity of dangerous young criminals? Does it not make sense to let everyone know what the dangerous individuals look like?

I would like my children to know what the young offenders look like and thus avoid a similar fate as the previous victims.

We all know what Peter Sutcliffe looks like and if he escaped people could get out of the way or report his location to enable recapture.

If we didn't know what he looked like and he escaped.. :crazy:

So why protect the identities of certain individuals?

Something to do with human rights and all that malarkey I suspect. :rolleyes:


Waits..
 

pipmk

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The one thing I have never grasped is why the identity of criminal children is hidden.

There are images of law abiding children on the front of magazine's etc.

So why hide the identity of dangerous young criminals? Does it not make sense to let everyone know what the dangerous individuals look like?

I would like my children to know what the young offenders look like and thus avoid a similar fate as the previous victims.

We all know what Peter Sutcliffe looks like and if he escaped people could get out of the way or report his location to enable recapture.

If we didn't know what he looked like and he escaped.. :crazy:

So why protect the identities of certain individuals?

Something to do with human rights and all that malarkey I suspect. :rolleyes:

I would have thought that was glaringly obvious, there will be vigilante mobs hunting them down on the streets, attacking anyone with the same name or any neighbour, the same super intelligent assets to our society who attacked a Doctors house because they were a paediatrician.
Whilst on the subject of society I see Dishonest Dave, that millionaire product of Eton who really knows what life is about for the average citizen, has said society is broken, conviently forgetting that his hero Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society"
 

Swiss Toni

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The one thing I have never grasped is why the identity of criminal children is hidden.
Because we place so much value in the potential of our young people, there is a presumption that if, as a juvenile, you have be in such circumstances that have resulted in you committing criminal behaviour, as a decent society we have a responsibility to do everything that we can to give you (and the rest of society) a chance in life.

If you are offending by the time you are an adult, the presumption of protection is towards the rest of the community rather than the individual - and so identity may be revealed.

There can be few juveniles who at some point haven't done something which in the strictest sense could be definned as criminal, but we generally accept that we all have a responsibility to protect and guide juveniles, not inflict retribution.

And I have met some pretty horrible juvenile offenders.

:)
 

stevieb15

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What utter ****, what do you want to happen to two children,the details of whose violent, abused upbringing you have surely read, hanging?
What they did was horrible, dreadful and so unspeakable as to make it obvious that they are badly disturbed children. Yes it's going to be expensive to keep them locked up in a secure unit whilst they are reformed, so what? It would be much more expensive to keep them in gaol for 40 years.
As for the suggestion that other 9 year olds will hatch a plan to commit a serious crime to get the same treatment, you need help, you are barking as is Para Alpha.
I pray you never reproduce or we will have more dysfunctional children.
I think you are the one who needs help, its the laissez-faire attitudes of people like who that have created the hole we are now living in.
The really unfortunate thing for most of us is the crime position in our country is now so bad we have overflowing prisons and as a consequence can't afford to lock up the truly evil people in our society for anywhere near long enough.
 

ringway

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The one thing I have never grasped is why the identity of criminal children is hidden.

There are images of law abiding children on the front of magazine's etc.

So why hide the identity of dangerous young criminals? Does it not make sense to let everyone know what the dangerous individuals look like?

I would like my children to know what the young offenders look like and thus avoid a similar fate as the previous victims.

We all know what Peter Sutcliffe looks like and if he escaped people could get out of the way or report his location to enable recapture.

If we didn't know what he looked like and he escaped.. :crazy:

So why protect the identities of certain individuals?

Something to do with human rights and all that malarkey I suspect. :rolleyes:

I would have thought that was glaringly obvious, there will be vigilante mobs hunting them down on the streets, attacking anyone with the same name or any neighbour, the same super intelligent assets to our society who attacked a Doctors house because they were a paediatrician.
Whilst on the subject of society I see Dishonest Dave, that millionaire product of Eton who really knows what life is about for the average citizen, has said society is broken, conviently forgetting that his hero Thatcher said "there is no such thing as society"
No, not glaringly obvious, which is why I asked the question? :)



Because we place so much value in the potential of our young people, there is a presumption that if, as a juvenile, you have be in such circumstances that have resulted in you committing criminal behaviour, as a decent society we have a responsibility to do everything that we can to give you (and the rest of society) a chance in life.

If you are offending by the time you are an adult, the presumption of protection is towards the rest of the community rather than the individual - and so identity may be revealed.

There can be few juveniles who at some point haven't done something which in the strictest sense could be definned as criminal, but we generally accept that we all have a responsibility to protect and guide juveniles, not inflict retribution.

And I have met some pretty horrible juvenile offenders.

:)

Thanks for explaining that. :thumb:



Does anyone know why on TV crime programmes the identity of adult offenders is sometimes hidden then?
 

pipmk

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I think you are the one who needs help, its the laissez-faire attitudes of people like who that have created the hole we are now living in.
The really unfortunate thing for most of us is the crime position in our country is now so bad we have overflowing prisons and as a consequence can't afford to lock up the truly evil people in our society for anywhere near long enough.

Are you seriously suggesting that a nine year old child would plan to commit a serious crime in order to be locked up for an indefinite period in order to be given a new identity on release?
Far from being laissez- faire my job for 30 years was to recommend how long people should be locked up for and when they should be released. Many times I recomended both very long sentences and refusal of parole.
Talk of what you know, whatever it is.
 

stevieb15

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Have you read my post? You certainly haven't answered it!
Perhaps a bit less self righteous indignation would serve you well.
 

pipmk

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Have you read my post? You certainly haven't answered it!
Perhaps a bit less self righteous indignation would serve you well.
You haven't read my reply either, I added to the numbers in prison, not detracted from them.
The latest crime figures have shown a fall in serious crime, but because that doesn't suit your view you will naturally say they have been fixed. A little more hard evidence and a little less name calling would help your case.
Come on, what is the basis of your expertise in this field which has perplexed the best minds for generations?
 
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scumbag

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time for the bin I think
 

del320

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...my job for 30 years was to recommend how long people should be locked up for and when they should be released.
Sadly (and no doubt with your honourable exception) a task which time and again has been shown to have been undertaken by parole boards with recklessness and incompetence.

Whether through experience or ignorance, views held by pipmk are widely held and appear at odds with those expressed in populist media outlets.

I just wish that some way could be devised to forceably enlist the more liberal commentators to act as mentors and role models to those extreme criminal elements of society.

Those mentors would be given every possible support - financial and pastoral for as long as was required. The rub would be that if their charge commited some transgression in the future, the mentor would suffer the most severe punishment. Simply stated, put+money+mouth.

This morning's BBC news featured an interview with a retired officer involved in the 1993 Jamie Bulger case. It pained him to state the unpalatable fact that children can be born genetically nasty.

It has been long recognised that those darling little children who stamp on hedgehogs or cut off kittens' paws are so beyond the pale that no amount of time and money will ever reform them.
 

stevieb15

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You haven't read my reply either, I added to the numbers in prison, not detracted from them.
The latest crime figures have shown a fall in serious crime, but because that doesn't suit your view you will naturally say they have been fixed. A little more hard evidence and a little less name calling would help your case.
Come on, what is the basis of your expertise in this field which has perplexed the best minds for generations?
You've responded to someones elses post!
Whatever you claim your skills are, responding to the wrong person is obviously high on your list of KPIs
 
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